Scottish referendum vote.

[Dandyman]

If they never have the referendum; or have it and say no; you're stuck funding its expensive police force and dead economy (biggest employer: the UK govt, second: Tesco... who have very, very few shops there!)

If they have it and say yes: We're stuck with it despite support for reunification being below 30% at this stage.

Joining with Scotland in some for for Celtic League might be the best thing for it but its not in the game plan at this stage.

Surely the Scots could just have Nord Iron as their very own colony ?

 

[ATFC Seagull]

It astounds me that Scotland seems to think the grass is greener alone. I think they are being blindly patriotic, have a look at the NI economy and get a grip. DC should tell em they can have a referendum next week and see what they think of their mighty Alex Salmond now. Run a constituency - yes, run a country - jog on....to argue that 16/17 year olds should be so influential that they are allowed a vote for a countries independance is indicative of their brain cell levels.

I think if the last 150 years of history have taught us anything, it's that a lot of people value self-determination above all other factors.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

If they have it and say yes: We're stuck with it despite support for reunification being below 30% at this stage.

You seem to know this stuff better than me, but doesn't it have to be agreed to by referendum in the Republic as well?

 

[cunning fergus]

I think if the last 150 years of history have taught us anything, it's that a lot of people value self-determination above all other factors.

Tell that to Messers Barroso, Ashton and Van Rumpoy etc.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Tell that to Messers Barroso, Ashton and Van Rumpoy etc.

It's all about opinions but I don't think you can hold up EU integration as a counter to the desire for national self-determination. Take the former Soviet states - desperate for independence, but equally desperate for EU membership.

 

[Dandyman]

You seem to know this stuff better than me, but doesn't it have to be agreed to by referendum in the Republic as well?

http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf

According to this if a majority in NI express the wish to become part of the republic of Ireland, then a bill is put to the British Parliament that then (assuming it does not reject the bill) requires the British and Irish governments to reach terms.

 

[Cian]

You seem to know this stuff better than me, but doesn't it have to be agreed to by referendum in the Republic as well?

Belfast Agreement referendum was deemed to be it for the Republic.

Surely the Scots could just have Nord Iron as their very own colony ?

If they'll take it, I'm sure there'd be few objections here or in Westminster...

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Belfast Agreement referendum was deemed to be it for the Republic.

Isn't that quite fundamentally flawed though, as it asked for Irish voters to effectively GIVE UP an immediate claim? Seems odd that ticking the same box automatically sanctions unification down the line...

 

[Cian]

Isn't that quite fundamentally flawed though, as it asked for Irish voters to effectively GIVE UP an immediate claim? Seems odd that ticking the same box automatically sanctions unification down the line...

Oh its entirely flawed. Bear in mind that the entire agreement is basically the same as one from the 70s, but said slower and louder for those who didn't quite catch it at the time and you'll see where problems existed from the off.

Unification support in ROI has plummeted for a number of reasons and the govt. at the moment, with the biggest majority ever, is made up of a party who do not want it and a party who'd be rather reluctant to take it. Although SF may as well be the official opposition...

 

[Dandyman]

Oh its entirely flawed. Bear in mind that the entire agreement is basically the same as one from the 70s, but said slower and louder for those who didn't quite catch it at the time and you'll see where problems existed from the off.

Unification support in ROI has plummeted for a number of reasons and the govt. at the moment, with the biggest majority ever, is made up of a party who do not want it and a party who'd be rather reluctant to take it. Although SF may as well be the official opposition...

It would be hilarious if a million pissed off Prods end up in an Ireland that is n't actually sure it wants reunification. The recriminations could last for ever.

 

[Cian]

It would be hilarious if a million pissed off Prods end up in an Ireland that is n't actually sure it wants reunification. The recriminations could last for ever.

I suspect we'd see people trying to actually lever off the bit east of the Bann and drag it across the North Channel in that case.

That said, there's enough Catholics and various other non-Prods in NI who don't want reunification (Rory McIlroy comes to mind, but he's not alone); but its also not like ROI is some Catholic paradise anymore - current government is intending to repossess masses of schools the Catholic Church took as its own, any attempt at political meddling by a bishop is likely to see them humiliated in the papers, not listened to. A lot more to fix though.

 

[beorhthelm]

It's all about opinions but I don't think you can hold up EU integration as a counter to the desire for national self-determination. Take the former Soviet states - desperate for independence, but equally desperate for EU membership.

but it is really, it shows at least a "grass is greener" confusion. many see the EU as a stepping stone to a United States of Europe and dont hide it either. meawhile, Catalonian, Basques, Flemish, Scots and a handfull of others would rather not be part of the country they find thesmselves in. SNP are particularly odd, wanting fiscal independence but then joining the Euro.

 

[Dandyman]

I suspect we'd see people trying to actually lever off the bit east of the Bann and drag it across the North Channel in that case.

That said, there's enough Catholics and various other non-Prods in NI who don't want reunification (Rory McIlroy comes to mind, but he's not alone); but its also not like ROI is some Catholic paradise anymore - current government is intending to repossess masses of schools the Catholic Church took as its own, any attempt at political meddling by a bishop is likely to see them humiliated in the papers, not listened to. A lot more to fix though.

Or alternatively reunification destroys the power of the Church of Rome over Ireland for ever and it becomes a modern secular state.

 

[Dandyman]

Belfast Agreement referendum was deemed to be it for the Republic.




If they'll take it, I'm sure there'd be few objections here or in Westminster...

On the prospect of a referendum on Scottish independence: initial thoughts Toole
This may be of interest:

 

[Cian]

Or alternatively reunification destroys the power of the Church of Rome over Ireland for ever and it becomes a modern secular state.

Its power was destroyed by voting out the Creeping Jesus's in February 2011 - FF went from 80 seats to 19.

Since that election its being removed from control of the three main hospitals it controls in Dublin as well as maternity hospitals (on the flipside, the COI is losing a hospital too); being removed from at least 30% of schools and effectively disbarred from getting rights to run any new ones and funding has been removed from its half-assed private ones.

Abortion should be legalised by the end of this year (albeit in incredibly limited circumstances, it'll go as far as they can without another referendum, they're scared of those). Civil partnership rights were properly extended to cover taxation, welfare, and so on. Vatican Embassy was closed on grounds of not having any purpose anymore - the UK still has one for some reason!

The final secularisation of the Constitution - which only mentions a generic Christian god, no religions - is likely to go to referendum in 2013.

 

[Northstandite]

King Alex the First?

Going by the amount of chins, Burger King.

 

[Brovion]

This thread's taken an interesting turn in discussing Northern Ireland (thanks to MYOB for his insights). I surely can't be the only Englishman who doesn't want to live in a rump 'United Kingdom'? Wales (providing it too doesn't want independence) I can accept as for hundreds of years (long before the crowns of England and Scotland were united) its status has been that of a principality, and despite some harrumphing and a lot of singing I think most Welsh people accept that. Ulster as we all know has been different. Could we see a situation where England and the English end up saying "Go on Ireland, be united!", and the Irish, both north and south say "Naa, we're ok as we are thanks!"

 

[Simster]

This thread's taken an interesting turn in discussing Northern Ireland (thanks to MYOB for his insights). I surely can't be the only Englishman who doesn't want to live in a rump 'United Kingdom'? Wales (providing it too doesn't want independence) I can accept as for hundreds of years (long before the crowns of England and Scotland were united) its status has been that of a principality, and despite some harrumphing and a lot of singing I think most Welsh people accept that. Ulster as we all know has been different. Could we see a situation where England and the English end up saying "Go on Ireland, be united!", and the Irish, both north and south say "Naa, we're ok as we are thanks!"

Wales hasn't been a prinicipality for hundreds of years (since 1542). It was a principality (hence the term "the principality") but is a nation now.

Whilst it would be nonsensical for a union featuring NI and England/Wales, why is there an assumption that Norn Iron would join either ROI or Scotland? More likely it would just retain independence from either IMO.

 

[Brovion]

Wales hasn't been a prinicipality for hundreds of years (since 1542). It was a principality (hence the term "the principality") but is a nation now.

Whilst it would be nonsensical for a union featuring NI and England/Wales, why is there an assumption that Norn Iron would join either ROI or Scotland? More likely it would just retain independence from either IMO.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

With regard to Norn Iron, are they big enough to become an independent state? According to MYOB they're a bit of an economic basket case and will be a drain on either Britain (sorry, England and Wales) or the Republic, so is complete independence from either nation really a viable option? And would they want it? Anyway, glad I'm not alone in thinking a rump UK is nonsensical.

 

[cunning fergus]

It's all about opinions but I don't think you can hold up EU integration as a counter to the desire for national self-determination. Take the former Soviet states - desperate for independence, but equally desperate for EU membership.

Well then it depends on upon what level of self determination you want? If the Scots want to determine their future independent of "interference" then they will not want to be in the EU. As for the former soviet states, time will tell if they have jumped from the frying pan into the fire..........as will other countries Greece, Spain et al.