Scotland and Independence. Again !!

[FatSuperman]

And make love?

Actually no. When I do that it's as god intended love between two mammals. With teeth, claws and fury.

How do you think that gorilla got out?

 

[ManOfSussex]

I wonder how many Remainers would have changed their vote if the position was reversed and there was a supposed risk of Scotland leaving the UK if we stayed in the EU .

Good question. Scotland and The UK staying together was a factor, among others, in my remain vote, so possibly.

 

[FatSuperman]

I actually don't want BREXIT triggered as soon as possible. I want a team of capable people ready with a plan they can put into action right away. There is a hell of a lot of work to be done and it cannot be done ad hoc, it must be properly planned. Most of us working in large companies know what happens when large projects or programme are run poorly - it doesn't matter how good the idea is if you **** up the execution.

This must not be rushed. The pain we are going through at the moment is temporary, we must suffer it. If BREXIT is rushed the pain will be baked in for much longer.

 

[cunning fergus]

But the Brexit thing has moved the goalposts - of course they want another referendum. And what's more, if Sturgeon calls it and the leaves win, the Tory government will look like a bunch of hypocritical twats if they don't honour it, seeing as May keeps foolishly banging the "Brexit means Brexit" drum.

As far as I'm concerned, we are seeing the dangers of the politics of the plebiscite unfolding in front of our eyes.

Of all the pant wetting by remainers this really takes the shortbread.

Polling evidence post Brexit indicated in Scotland that even the SNP vote was split and plenty chose leave.

Their best chance was in the last referendum, and they lost.

That was the referendum where the SNP lied about the oil revenue by exaggerating it 13 times, and contrived a policy of having independence whilst fiscal policy was determined in London.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/04/snp-exaggerate-oil-revenues

The SNP are a busted flush from an economic perspective, this time around they would be arguing for joining the euro and selling an economic dream linked with the fortunes of the EU.

They didn't argue for the euro in the last referendum becuase only 7% of jocks supported that policy.

The threat of a referendum is political grandstanding, no more no less.

If I was May I would given them one now.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I actually don't want BREXIT triggered as soon as possible. I want a team of capable people ready with a plan they can put into action right away. There is a hell of a lot of work to be done and it cannot be done ad hoc, it must be properly planned. Most of us working in large companies know what happens when large projects or programme are run poorly - it doesn't matter how good the idea is if you **** up the execution.

This must not be rushed. The pain we are going through at the moment is temporary, we must suffer it. If BREXIT is rushed the pain will be baked in for much longer.

Totally agree.

 

[Simster]

Of all the pant wetting by remainers this really takes the shortbread.

Polling evidence post Brexit indicated in Scotland that even the SNP vote was split and plenty chose leave.

Their best chance was in the last referendum, and they lost.

That was the referendum where the SNP lied about the oil revenue by exaggerating it 13 times, and contrived a policy of having independence whilst fiscal policy was determined in London.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/04/snp-exaggerate-oil-revenues

The SNP are a busted flush from an economic perspective, this time around they would be arguing for joining the euro and selling an economic dream linked with the fortunes of the EU.

They didn't argue for the euro in the last referendum becuase only 7% of jocks supported that policy.

The threat of a referendum is political grandstanding, no more no less.

If I was May I would given them one now.

How is political grandstanding? The SNP are a nationalist party who stand on an independent Scotland ticket and now the English (and Welsh) have illustrated their concerns perfectly. You're calling it grandstanding simply because you're a Brexiter, and as such, all this nonsense about nationalist lies during referendum campaigning is a bit rich. £350m to the NHS anyone? FFS...

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Btw a consistent, credible position for a Scottish Nationalist should surely be leave the UK and the EU!

I think that's quite wrong. See post 31.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

Perfectly legitimate and I can't say I blame them wanting to leave a country run by a government which is increasingly resembling a death cult. Also if they do a grandmother born in Invergordon could be my path to an EU passport.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

How is political grandstanding? The SNP are a nationalist party who stand on an independent Scotland ticket and now the English (and Welsh) have illustrated their concerns perfectly. You're calling it grandstanding simply because you're a Brexiter, and as such, all this nonsense about nationalist lies during referendum campaigning is a bit rich. £350m to the NHS anyone? FFS...

The BBC's Scotland political editor seems to think it's grandstanding:

Will a second independence referendum happen?

By BBC Scotland political editor Brian Taylor

Consultation does not mean decision. It does not mean a date for the ballot. It does not mean action. It does not mean a referendum will definitely happen. It means next to nothing.

 

[beorhthelm]

That takes me on to the leaders of the UK and Scotland respectively. Teresa May actually does not know what she wants to do. She is afraid to move on the Brexit issue but she is afraid not to because the UK populous voted to leave.

Contrast that with Nicola Sturgeon. She knows what she wants. She passionately believes in what she is fighting for and that sends the right signals to the people. I don't actually think anyone can knock Nicola Sturgeon on her convictions. You might not agree with them but they are ''steadfast'' and I for one wish that a lot more politicians were like her.

as i see it May doesnt want Brexit to be the only issue, its one of many that need attention, too early to say if shes dithering on direction. there's 2.5 ministries involved (Foreign Office does have other things on it plate), so leave it to them. Sturgeon leads a party with independence at its heart, i wouldnt quite call it a single issue party but it dominates. so while she's fighting for that, what is she letting slip by? as i understand there are number of problems with health, education and policing, the standard SNP tactic is to blame all ills on Westminster, taking credit for anything positive. they have failed to make use of their tax raising powers to adjust fiscal policy, instead have their hand out every time investment is made in England to ensure they get some equivalent under Barnett.

 

[ManOfSussex]

The BBC's Scotland political editor seems to think it's grandstanding:

Will a second independence referendum happen?

By BBC Scotland political editor Brian Taylor

Consultation does not mean decision. It does not mean a date for the ballot. It does not mean action. It does not mean a referendum will definitely happen. It means next to nothing.

A very loud demand for Brexit Soft to London then.

 

[Jim in the West]

That is about right.
Their country is insignificant. No real economic contribution to the UK that is meaningful at all. Supplicants and reliant on the English tax paying power.
They are laughable but they have too loud a voice.

There are only two cities in England that make a net contribution to our country's wealth: London and Bristol. They both voted Remain by some margin (London 60/40, Bristol 62/38). The vast majority of England would be "supplicants", to use your expression. In fact, generally, there was a strong relationship between the economically poor areas of England and the tendency to Vote Leave. In other words, Leavers are generally reliant on Remainers. That's a fact, by the way!

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

There are only two cities in England that make a net contribution to our country's wealth: London and Bristol. They both voted Remain by some margin (London 60/40, Bristol 62/38). The vast majority of England would be "supplicants", to use your expression. In fact, generally, there was a strong relationship between the economically poor areas of England and the tendency to Vote Leave. In other words, Leavers are generally reliant on Remainers. That's a fact, by the way!

Can't you see the irony in your post? Perhaps there's a very real reason that the poorer areas voted leave? The only 'fact' is that our country's economy is hopelessly imbalanced particularly weighted towards London. Perhaps there is a small chance that some of the poorer people in the country are feeling left out, that while the last 30 years the prosperity of the country has risen, the gap between rich and poor whether in Tory times or labour, has divided the country ever more. It's into that scenario that huge immigration occurred, perceptions of which have heightened racial resentment and have led to enormous lack of faith in our politicians and especially those from somewhere else (the EU). But you just carry on, let yourself feel good about 'supporting' the leave areas with your hard earned and I'm sure all the last year's nasty memories of Brexit and rebellion will all go away.

 

[FatSuperman]

Perhaps there's a very real reason that the poorer areas voted leave? The only 'fact' is that our country's economy is hopelessly imbalanced particularly weighted towards London.

I 'feel' (based on nothing) that people who are unhappy with their lot, for whatever reason would be more likely to vote leave, due to the grass being greener. I understand this and don't blame people for that approach!

With regards to the imbalance though, is that not true of all nations? The majority of well off people are centred around a small number of large cities? Ironically, the majority of poor people are in the same areas.

 

[Pavilionaire]

In situations like this, where I really have no idea of the long term picture, I just try and ensure that every move I make is in the right direction, and leaves me in a better position than before - not necessarily the best move I could have made, but always positive, always forward.

This is what I don't understand about some Brexit voters. For me, I weigh up the risk and rewards - is the British economy stable, is inflation low, is my mortgage cheap, are my prospects of work good, will my pension pot hold its value, do I have personal freedom to come and go as I please, do immigrants make a positive contribution to UK society?

I then consider what could go wrong - a flight of investment out of the country, the £ sterling crashes, inflation increases, job prospects worsen , personal freedoms are curtailed, racial tensions increase.

And what is the best case scenario? Basically, a decrease in immigration levels that allow it to be sustainable. But this outcome might have eventually come about even by staying in the EU, given that all EU members states are adversely affected by immigration to some extent.

The bottom line is the potential rewards are small compared to the huge risks of leaving the EU. I believe that many voters have completely underestimated the risks of voting LEAVE.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

There are only two cities in England that make a net contribution to our country's wealth: London and Bristol. They both voted Remain by some margin (London 60/40, Bristol 62/38). The vast majority of England would be "supplicants", to use your expression. In fact, generally, there was a strong relationship between the economically poor areas of England and the tendency to Vote Leave. In other words, Leavers are generally reliant on Remainers. That's a fact, by the way!

Looking at the net contributors there are more than two net contributing cities, I.e. Cambridge, Oxford as well, that's in addition to the southeast region and East which admittedly are not cities but contain cities. That information is hard to find!

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I think we should have a referendum to see if we want to keep the Scots. I think they would be voted out. Now the oil is worth less they would really struggle.

But wait a while ... and watch what happens to the price of oil.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

A very loud demand for Brexit Soft to London then.

I agree!

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

The bottom line is the potential rewards are small compared to the huge risks of leaving the EU. I believe that many voters have completely underestimated the risks of voting LEAVE.

Your reasons for voting remain are good. However, I believe that many voters have completely underestimated the risks of voting REMAIN.

Your statement works equally well both ways. On NSC we've been slaughtering a dead horse for months now with reasons to leave and reasons to remain, so why do you present the argument as though it is all one sided?

 

[FatSuperman]

This is what I don't understand about some Brexit voters. For me, I weigh up the risk and rewards - is the British economy stable, is inflation low, is my mortgage cheap, are my prospects of work good, will my pension pot hold its value, do I have personal freedom to come and go as I please, do immigrants make a positive contribution to UK society?

I know you aren't targetting me with the post, but for reference I voted remain. I too try and weigh up everything I can, but in situations where we absolutely don't know what's going to happen, I make the best decision I can and make my move - in this case, based on the info, I voted remain.

However, try and play devil's advocate. What if you don't have good work prospects? What if you have no pension? What if you don't have a mortgage because house price inflation has priced you (and nearly every other person out of the market)? Near enough everything successive governments have done on this topic over the past 20 years has been aimed at increasing house prices (homeowners vote more than non-homeowners.

There are a lot of very dissatisfied people out there. I'm not personally one of them, but I sympathise with them. I think they are misguided if they chose Brexit because they weren't happy with their lot, but I absolutely understand.

It doesn't matter why any more, it matters what happens next and that we make the absolute best attempt that can be made. I have faith that the Brexit team will try their best, I'm just worried their best will fall short of where we need to be to improve upon where we are today.