Science Vs Religion

[NMH]

IMHO;
Science is just the study of the creator's works. What made stuff so science could examine it? Science bloody well didn't just happen to invent itself did it?

Religion though, is dodgy, as it's mankind with it's collectively enormous lack of capacity to comprehend, trying to understand and interpret what has been penned by other men, and yet manage to use it for their own ends and manipulate the scriptures. Man has always warred and conflicted, confounding all efforts to live in peace, and innocents suffer by the millions.

Whether man studies religion or science, he man-ages to fall painfully short. The 'expanding' universe may just be the speed that man's comprehension falls behind by.

Whatever you believe or disbelieve, my advice would be to just keep saying your prayers

 

[NMH]

Is it a light I see before me? Yes, it's a light bulb. Powered by electricity, transported from power stations over the land in pylons.

Or I guess I could pray for the light, and sit in the dark. Hmmm. Tough choice. Science for me, I think.

Well there you go! Of course, since the creator made this a perfect world, you should realise that the light will not come on without the switch.
People can pray to defy gravity, then drop a weight - and it will hit the ground ; perfect!
Should you pray that the world defy the 'great plan' OR 'science', .....i.e. so that the pressure of our atmosphere will not be so brilliantly liveable, the air breathable, the blood and oxygen mixing and your heart pumping in rhythm constantly for say...80 years or whatever?
Howabout that moon so well placed as to turn the tides, those bacteria harmoniously existing within and without us so that we can sustain ?
Consider the coincidences that are your makeup - a different sperm or egg and you wouldn't exist. A simple few miles difference from the sun, a change in the layers screening us as the sun shines, the tilt in earth, the angles that mean Earth will have seasons balanced to live in, and that we don't freeze or bake intermittently, daily vs nightly.

Don't pray for outlandish mumbo-jumbos that defy nature - that's asking nature to implode, to do something to defy itself, isn't it? Can you pray for the unnatural with any faith? It's faith that supports prayer, the basic requirement that prayer is founded upon, fundamentally.

Accept what is, then pray for what can be.

 

[NMH]

At the end of the day, when you die, you will find out if there is a God, unfortunately you won't be able to tell anyone about it, therefore as I said its a matter of faith.

Nicely thought-out post DTG, and I just want to ask why everyone has to die to realise and face God. I'll suggest here that we involve in science to try to study the reality that is what has been created.
Is it not real enough, perfect enough for people to believe in what they see? Must everything be taken for granted as soon as it's explained (aka 'explained away')?

I heard a rumour that the scientists/biologists who have come closest to understanding genetics have acclaimed and embraced the existence of a creator.

How funny that, once we comprehend some previously-incomprehensible form of science, man arrogantly dismisses it as 'merely scientific' !?

In the face of God, would we stand there and exclaim "is that it? Oh ok, I get it, what can you show me next?"?

I think It's man that defies belief, not God!

 

[driddles]

Having read the bulk of Bryson's 'A complete history of nearly everything' and having made several false starts at getting through the bible. I can only say that the explanation of the beginning of Earth and the Universe is as unbelievable by one side as it is the other.

 

[Sorrel]

True, but at the end of the day, in the late 80s I lived nearer the Wheatsheaf than you did, so I'm more likely to be right.

Aha, so it is you. I always wondered where you were (and for a while thought you were "The Clown of Pevensy Bay" (sorry)).

What are you doing these days? Still following the Albion, I guess. I'm living with my wife and children in the Midlands, which is quite trendy amongst Albion supporters at the moment, or at least that's what was said on the advert. I don't recommend it unless you like "hot pork batches".

 

[Hungry Joe.]

I have more letters after my name than in it to attest to my academic pursuit of matters scientific. That said, modern 'Science' disgusts me.

True science is an empirically based discipline. Empirical truth from anaysis is the goal - science fails. It is always pleasing to see the academic pursuit of Maths traditionally awarded as a BA.

There is little true empiricism in current scientific discipline, we are as blinkered as the 'flat-earth' generation in our acceptance of modern paradigms.

Much 'science' is now arrogantly accepted as 'proof' when in fact it is merely a reflection of our lazy acceptance of convenient models which fit our limited understanding of the true nature of 'stuff and things'.

Our percieved scientific proofs exists purely as a result of our acceptance of a degree of statistical tolerance in the veracity of our models. Nothing more. The statistical proofs come from the discipline of Math. Maths accepts its failings as a science.

Ergo, Science is bunk (in it's proposition to be 'truth' at least).

The spiritual/ religious is best left to The Flaming Lips:

'Now listen, I don't know the dimensions of outer space, but if our ability to feel love turns out to be just some cosmic accident, I'd like to think this means the universe is on our side'

here endith the lesson

That is without doubt the best thing I've ever read on NSC.

 

[larus]

Nicely thought-out post DTG, and I just want to ask why everyone has to die to realise and face God. I'll suggest here that we involve in science to try to study the reality that is what has been created.
Is it not real enough, perfect enough for people to believe in what they see? Must everything be taken for granted as soon as it's explained (aka 'explained away')?

I heard a rumour that the scientists/biologists who have come closest to understanding genetics have acclaimed and embraced the existence of a creator.

How funny that, once we comprehend some previously-incomprehensible form of science, man arrogantly dismisses it as 'merely scientific' !?

In the face of God, would we stand there and exclaim "is that it? Oh ok, I get it, what can you show me next?"?

I think It's man that defies belief, not God!

NMH.

Science is the study of the universe by man, it is not defining the rules, it is trying to understand the rules. Think how far we have come in the last 2 hundred years, and how much further we will get with our understanding in another 200 years (assuming we don't kill ourselves in the mean-time).

Religion is a matter of belief/faith. The universe has either been created by chance, or by some divine omnipotent being. We cannot know, we can have views & opinions, but no more. It can never be proved or disproved. To take the bible on face value is insane, as it is obviously factually wrong. However, the values in it are what most 'normal' people would agree with, respect (Not as per Ali G), love, compassion, etc.

As for your statement about scientists and belief in God; yes many scientists do believe, but then again, many don't. So, what does that prove. Nothing, again, it's all a matter of conjecture.

I don't believe, but I do feel as though if there was a God and a day of reckoning, I would be judged on how I have lived my life (oh well, here come purgatory then....), not if I had believed in him or been to church every week. This message has been created by men, purely to control people by fear.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

science for me

 

[Tom Bombadil]

NMH wrote,

"I heard a rumour that the scientists/biologists who have come closest to understanding genetics have acclaimed and embraced the existence of a creator."

And I heard a rumour they haven't, and a rumour that Cardiff are going to sign Leon Knight

"How funny that, once we comprehend some previously-incomprehensible form of science, man arrogantly dismisses it as 'merely scientific' !? "

As funny as blindly accepting everything we don't understand as the work of god.

"In the face of God, would we stand there and exclaim "is that it? Oh ok, I get it, what can you show me next?"?"

You've got to challenge God, or he'll rest on his laurels

"I think It's man that defies belief, not God!"

Tshh atheist

 

[NMH]

NMH.

Science is the study of the universe by man, it is not defining the rules, it is trying to understand the rules. Think how far we have come in the last 2 hundred years, and how much further we will get with our understanding in another 200 years (assuming we don't kill ourselves in the mean-time).

Religion is a matter of belief/faith. The universe has either been created by chance, or by some divine omnipotent being. We cannot know, we can have views & opinions, but no more. It can never be proved or disproved. To take the bible on face value is insane, as it is obviously factually wrong. However, the values in it are what most 'normal' people would agree with, respect (Not as per Ali G), love, compassion, etc.

As for your statement about scientists and belief in God; yes many scientists do believe, but then again, many don't. So, what does that prove. Nothing, again, it's all a matter of conjecture.

I don't believe, but I do feel as though if there was a God and a day of reckoning, I would be judged on how I have lived my life (oh well, here come purgatory then....), not if I had believed in him or been to church every week. This message has been created by men, purely to control people by fear.

Well I agree that the World - and your World - doesn't depend on whether you believe in God or not. Your own 'day of reckoning' can only be about how you lived, not how many times you were in church. Apparently, religion is here to teach us to live properly, but man has used it to find more differences - blame MAN for that though. We are free to do as we choose, we're not forced to believe or to behave in one special way.

My point about some scientists accepting God, is that they are in the pursuit of scientific knowledge, but do not see it as 'science vs religion' but science as well as religion, even science in pursuit of religion. It's not a battle of the two thesuses (spelled theses? I dunno) Conjecture it is, and who said it wasn't? Not me, this thread is all about conjecture too.

 

[attila]

'The Social Reality of Religion' by Peter L Berger & Thomas Luckmann.
Great book.
In a nutshell: there is an inverse relationship between scientific advancement and the need for religion to explain the world.

 

[Easy 10]

That is without doubt the best thing I've ever read on NSC.

You clearly havn't been on Kev the Apes wrestling thread then.

 

[NMH]

NMH wrote,

"I heard a rumour that the scientists/biologists who have come closest to understanding genetics have acclaimed and embraced the existence of a creator."

And I heard a rumour they haven't, and a rumour that Cardiff are going to sign Leon Knight

"How funny that, once we comprehend some previously-incomprehensible form of science, man arrogantly dismisses it as 'merely scientific' !? "

As funny as blindly accepting everything we don't understand as the work of god.

"In the face of God, would we stand there and exclaim "is that it? Oh ok, I get it, what can you show me next?"?"

You've got to challenge God, or he'll rest on his laurels

"I think It's man that defies belief, not God!"

Tshh atheist

A. my point is that, apparently the very people hardest at study on the basis of our being, and the roots of life itself, do not refute God. I haven't spoken to them personally you understand, so it's rumour.

B. If acceptance of things we don't understand is "blind", then I suppose that's why we indulge in science in the first place, isn't it? Why do we bother unless we seek knowledge? Why do we want knowledge? The quest for scientific knowledge is only the same as quest for religious knowledge, not much difference.

C. Er...how do you challenge God exactly? It could be said that God challenged you, but I don't see how it's vice-versa.

D. You defy belief.

 

[Hungry Joe.]

You clearly havn't been on Kev the Apes wrestling thread then.

No I haven't. Please show me the way.........