[Albion] Safe Standing at the AMEX

[Terry Butcher Tribute Act]

The club engaged with fans, did surveys, and reviewed options over 5 years ago. There actually was mixed support for the idea at the time
They produced this video then

https://youtu.be/5fi2prPbldA

And ran a forum

https://youtu.be/QdE__WZmF9U

Here’s BBC report
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/37574843

I attended the forum.

The mixed response was people not wanting to move to a different area to accommodate it. And that was that. Idea binned off. Very odd.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

 

[drew]

I know plenty of people stand, but in my experience it's not the same as you get in an away end (where near enough everybody stands throughout). It's also not the same as some stands at other grounds like the Kop at Anfield, where the seats are so close together that it's basically impossible for anybody with legs to sit down (which is obviously the main driver for this at a lot of grounds, because that's a major safety issue).

But the assumption by many is that once you fit rail seating then all the people in the North Stand that don't currently sing will either start singing or be replaced by people that will. My recollection of the north stand at the Goldstone was that the singing section was the bit in the middle, not the whole stand. What makes people think it will be any different?

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

But the assumption by many is that once you fit rail seating then all the people in the North Stand that don't currently sing will either start singing or be replaced by people that will. My recollection of the north stand at the Goldstone was that the singing section was the bit in the middle, not the whole stand. What makes people think it will be any different?

Ooh well done, having failed to pull rank over me not going to home matches you've successfully pulled the "I'm old enough to remember going to the Goldstone card" .

I can't speak for "people", they're all weird and probably mentally deranged. As far as I'm concerned it is likely to make a marginal difference to the atmosphere, because people who are stood up are (for various reasons) more likely to be engaged and energetic than people who are sat down, and so are that much more likely to sing and make a noise.

With my engineer's hat on, I'm much more concerned with the safety aspects, as there's a clear safety issue with people standing in seated areas not designed for it, and we shouldn't be waiting for some sod to trip over while jumping around celebrating a goal to split their head open to do something about it. From an atmosphere point of view, the best way to improve it would be for the team to win more often, preferably via a series of seemingly unlikely comebacks.

I'm curious as to why you seem to be so against it, when you sit in the WSU, which nobody is seriously suggesting converting to safe standing?

 

[Fat Boy Fat]

I find this whole safe standing argument a bit weird, as there appears to be a inherent belief that people that stand add to the atmosphere. Is this true? Is it not possible to sit and sing your heart out.

What if those that get tickets for a safe standing area can’t/don’t sing? Will there be auditions to see who can sing and deserves one of the Holy Grail positions. Or will this be like Crystal Palace and the Ultras (stop sniggering at the back), where a few spotty oiks basically held the club to ransom and spoilt any last modicum of integrity the club may have had.

As far as I can see the clubs currently installing seats aren’t doing it to improve atmosphere, but to prevent a disaster where people flagrantly ignore the current no standing regs.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jun/15/liverpool-to-install-7800-safety-rail-seats-at-anfield-to-reduce-risks-of-standing

 

[drew]

Ooh well done, having failed to pull rank over me not going to home matches you've successfully pulled the "I'm old enough to remember going to the Goldstone card" .

I can't speak for "people", they're all weird and probably mentally deranged. As far as I'm concerned it is likely to make a marginal difference to the atmosphere, because people who are stood up are (for various reasons) more likely to be engaged and energetic than people who are sat down, and so are that much more likely to sing and make a noise.

With my engineer's hat on, I'm much more concerned with the safety aspects, as there's a clear safety issue with people standing in seated areas not designed for it, and we shouldn't be waiting for some sod to trip over while jumping around celebrating a goal to split their head open to do something about it. From an atmosphere point of view, the best way to improve it would be for the team to win more often, preferably via a series of seemingly unlikely comebacks.

I'm curious as to why you seem to be so against it, when you sit in the WSU, which nobody is seriously suggesting converting to safe standing?

Firstly, not pulling rank, just making observations.

Also, I'm not against it per se, I just find some of the arguments nonsensical. I agree, people standing up generally generate a better atmosphere but people already stand in the North Stand. You make some comments about safety yet in 10 years there doesn't appear to have been any issues. As for someone cracking their head open, well lets get rid of any concrete surface then because that could happen. As I see it, the only difference will be people standing in exactly the same positions but with a rail in front of them. You can't move around like people did on the old terracing, that is you need to stand in your allocated position, you can't surge forward and I'm guessing pissing where you stand won't be acceptable. Also, there is no guarantee that the rail seats will only go to those that want to sing. I bet there will be plenty of oldies craving for the nostalgia of standing but won't actually join in the singing, at least not until the on pitch action incites it.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

Firstly, not pulling rank, just making observations.

Also, I'm not against it per se, I just find some of the arguments nonsensical. I agree, people standing up generally generate a better atmosphere but people already stand in the North Stand. You make some comments about safety yet in 10 years there doesn't appear to have been any issues. As for someone cracking their head open, well lets get rid of any concrete surface then because that could happen. As I see it, the only difference will be people standing in exactly the same positions but with a rail in front of them. You can't move around like people did on the old terracing, that is you need to stand in your allocated position, you can't surge forward and I'm guessing pissing where you stand won't be acceptable. Also, there is no guarantee that the rail seats will only go to those that want to sing. I bet there will be plenty of oldies craving for the nostalgia of standing but won't actually join in the singing, at least not until the on pitch action incites it.

I'll be straight with this, I prefer watching football stood up. Whether I'm at an away game, at Newhaven with kids running around behind me, or on the odd occasion I've been to other side's games with friends or whatever and I've been able to stand, I just prefer it. And that's the main reason I want it to be allowed. That's not nostalgia for the days of fags and piss, because I wasn't there for that, I just enjoy it more. In the same way as I prefer to stand at a rock concert but sit down to listen to an orchestra.

As far as safety goes, you're probably right, if we were thinking about this from first principles it probably would be a good idea to put something a bit softer than concrete on the floor. But in those stands where people generally stand anyway it's unquestionably safer to put a rail at waist (or wherever exactly it is) height than at the level of the seat in front, which is normally around shin level.

Basically it comes down to those people who prefer to stand have a safer option available, and those people who don't have the rest of the stadium to sit in without having fat 6'+ lummoxes like me stood in front of them. Cost of installation aside, I really don't see a downside.

 

[drew]

I'll be straight with this, I prefer watching football stood up. Whether I'm at an away game, at Newhaven with kids running around behind me, or on the odd occasion I've been to other side's games with friends or whatever and I've been able to stand, I just prefer it. And that's the main reason I want it to be allowed. That's not nostalgia for the days of fags and piss, because I wasn't there for that, I just enjoy it more. In the same way as I prefer to stand at a rock concert but sit down to listen to an orchestra.

As far as safety goes, you're probably right, if we were thinking about this from first principles it probably would be a good idea to put something a bit softer than concrete on the floor. But in those stands where people generally stand anyway it's unquestionably safer to put a rail at waist (or wherever exactly it is) height than at the level of the seat in front, which is normally around shin level.

Basically it comes down to those people who prefer to stand have a safer option available, and those people who don't have the rest of the stadium to sit in without having fat 6'+ lummoxes like me stood in front of them. Cost of installation aside, I really don't see a downside.

From all that, all I can see is that you are justifying purely because of some safety issue that isn't really an issue. It's easy to dismiss the cost but then it won't be the fans that pay for, at least not up front. As for having a six footer standing in front of you, that will could still happen and the short arse whose standing ticket is behind you is stuck with it.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

From all that, all I can see is that you are justifying purely because of some safety issue that isn't really an issue. It's easy to dismiss the cost but then it won't be the fans that pay for, at least not up front. As for having a six footer standing in front of you, that will could still happen and the short arse whose standing ticket is behind you is stuck with it.

It's amazing how the question around safety features changes from "Do we really need to pay for this?" before an accident to "Why the hell didn't we do it before?" after somebody's killed or seriously injured

Apart from cost, which is relatively small in the context of a Premier league club budget, you've still not actually given any objection to this. But I'll grant you that boring people into submission is an effective tactic if you just want to stop them actively disagreeing with you.

 

[Fat Boy Fat]

It's amazing how the question around safety features changes from "Do we really need to pay for this?" before an accident to "Why the hell didn't we do it before?" after somebody's killed or seriously injured

Apart from cost, which is relatively small in the context of a Premier league club budget, you've still not actually given any objection to this. But I'll grant you that boring people into submission is an effective tactic if you just want to stop them actively disagreeing with you.

[MENTION=5208]drew[/MENTION] had a very good point, which you have glossed over. What if the person in front of you is disproportionately large and you are behind him and can’t see the game? In the old terrace days you would simply move to where you could get a better view. Not so with a prescribed standing position, or will this area become a free for all with people pushed out of their allotted standing spot by whoever gets their first, a bit like being at an away game...

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

[MENTION=5208]drew[/MENTION] had a very good point, which you have glossed over. What if the person in front of you is disproportionately large and you are behind him and can’t see the game? In the old terrace days you would simply move to where you could get a better view. Not so with a prescribed standing position, or will this area become a free for all with people pushed out of their allotted standing spot by whoever gets their first, a bit like being at an away game...

I'd suggest that in the overwhelming majority of cases that could be dealt with by talking to the people immediately around you and swapping with one of them. We're talking about this being installed in areas where a significant proportion of people already stand up, so that's already going to be an issue. If you read the last paragraph of the message Drew was replying to you'll see I raised it, not them.

 

[Fat Boy Fat]

I'd suggest that in the overwhelming majority of cases that could be dealt with by talking to the people immediately around you and swapping with one of them. We're talking about this being installed in areas where a significant proportion of people already stand up, so that's already going to be an issue. If you read the last paragraph of the message Drew was replying to you'll see I raised it, not them.

Fair do, hadn't spotted you had already mentioned the 6 footer scenario. That said, I'm not sure how happy the club would be with people swapping seats/standing areas...

I still think this could create the free for all seen at away games where little or no consideration is given to a fellow fan's comfort or rights or another Crystal Palace Ultras situation/embarrassment.

 

[drew]

[MENTION=5208]drew[/MENTION] had a very good point, which you have glossed over. What if the person in front of you is disproportionately large and you are behind him and can’t see the game? In the old terrace days you would simply move to where you could get a better view. Not so with a prescribed standing position, or will this area become a free for all with people pushed out of their allotted standing spot by whoever gets their first, a bit like being at an away game...

I think that's irrelevant, Sid's requirement for installing rail seating is to prevent a major injury to someone in a scenario that hasn't happened in 10 years of the Amex. Of course, we will need to put padding around the rail itself in case someone slips and bangs their head on it!!!

 

[drew]

Fair do, hadn't spotted you had already mentioned the 6 footer scenario. That said, I'm not sure how happy the club would be with people swapping seats/standing areas...

I still think this could create the free for all seen at away games where little or no consideration is given to a fellow fan's comfort or rights or another Crystal Palace Ultras situation/embarrassment.

Spot on re Palace. It's laughable how for years we've been giving flack to Parrish/Palace for forcible moving long terms fans to accommodate the ultras yet here we with some fans suggesting we do the same.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

Fair do, hadn't spotted you had already mentioned the 6 footer scenario. That said, I'm not sure how happy the club would be with people swapping seats/standing areas...

I still think this could create the free for all seen at away games where little or no consideration is given to a fellow fan's comfort or rights or another Crystal Palace Ultras situation/embarrassment.

I'm pretty sure the club aren't meant to be happy with people standing in their seats at all, but people still do it. I'd also be surprised if everybody actually sits in the exact seat on their ticket now, there are certainly plenty of people wondering around the north stand chatting to different people immediately before a game and I'm sure they don't all end up back in their designated seat.

I should probably differentiate between my preference, for the whole north stand to be safe standing, and what I think is actually sensible and necessary, which is to install it in those areas towards the rear of the stand where people frequently stand up already. Clearly if they changed the whole stand over that's going to annoy a fair number of people who are particularly attached to their seat, but that's not what I'd argue for.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

I think that's irrelevant, Sid's requirement for installing rail seating is to prevent a major injury to someone in a scenario that hasn't happened in 10 years of the Amex. Of course, we will need to put padding around the rail itself in case someone slips and bangs their head on it!!!

The design life of the stadium will be something like 50 or 100 years (somebody on here will probably know what it actually is), not 10 with one of those seasons nearly completely void of fans. You can't dismiss a risk just because it hasn't come about in a relatively short period. To install safe seating in an area where people largely stand already is not over expensive, addresses an obvious risk, and removes the situation where the rules around standing are barely enforced for no particular reason in arbitrary parts of the stands.

 

[drew]

The design life of the stadium will be something like 50 or 100 years (somebody on here will probably know what it actually is), not 10 with one of those seasons nearly completely void of fans. You can't dismiss a risk just because it hasn't come about in a relatively short period. To install safe seating in an area where people largely stand already is not over expensive, addresses an obvious risk, and removes the situation where the rules around standing are barely enforced for no particular reason in arbitrary parts of the stands.

I'm not necessarily dismissing the risk, but you seem happy to replace one negligible risk with another. There are many risks around a stadium, in fact there are many in every day life. We don't eliminate them all or replace one risk with another.

That said we seem to be going off at a weird tangent. The people that are crying out for safe standing are not doing so because they fear falling over.

 

[Napper]

problem is where does it go.

Most the North dont sing so people simply wont move to accommodate it.

Behind the South ?

 

[Easy 10]

For me this always falls down on one fundamental point. Unless you can all gather up and go and stand where you want, then seriously whats the point of "safe standing" ? Its no different from having an allocated seat. You're still going through the same rigmarole of being allocated a seat in a stand, only difference being you've got a barrier in front of it.

So sure, you can lean against a barrier with your seat folded up behind you. Great. But its still absolutely no substitute for an actual terrace, and I'm far from convinced it would do anything whatsoever to enhance the atmosphere.

Pointless, expensive, and will make naff-all difference.

 

[drew]

For me this always falls down on one fundamental point. Unless you can all gather up and go and stand where you want, then seriously whats the point of "safe standing" ? Its no different from having an allocated seat. You're still going through the same rigmarole of being allocated a seat in a stand, only difference being you've got a barrier in front of it.

So sure, you can lean against a barrier with your seat folded up behind you. Great. But its still absolutely no substitute for an actual terrace, and I'm far from convinced it would do anything whatsoever to enhance the atmosphere.

Pointless, expensive, and will make naff-all difference.

Pretty much sums up where I'm at.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

I'm not necessarily dismissing the risk, but you seem happy to replace one negligible risk with another. There are many risks around a stadium, in fact there are many in every day life. We don't eliminate them all or replace one risk with another.

That said we seem to be going off at a weird tangent. The people that are crying out for safe standing are not doing so because they fear falling over.

What other risk does safe standing introduce? I'm genuinely interested.

I don't understand the argument that because it doesn't recreate an old fashioned terrace that it has no value. There are a significant number of people who prefer to stand while watching football, quite apart from nostalgia for the days when you paid 2/6 to get in and had to stand in a stream of piss from the bloke behind you. If there wasn't a demand for it more widely then it wouldn't be being installed at numerous stadiums around the country and in other places. If it's successful at other clubs then I'd expect more enthusiasm for installing it in at least parts of the north stand.