[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[essbee1]

As the news spreads among the population, I would expect the propaganda to more closely follow the news, to maintain the appearance of reality.

Blame avoidance will become a theme (Belousov has already blamed the Americans for the 'provocation').

Currently, pro-Ukraine accounts say Ukraine is making fast progress backed up by many young Russian conscripts being taken as POWs, which suggests that they can't retreat fast enough.

I'm not expecting this footage to be shown on Russian TV.

And the good thing is that I'm sure young Russian conscripts will be only too happy to
lay down their weapons. 99% probably have no interest in fighting for a cause that
they don't believe in or is clearly a waste of time, promoted by the headcase, small knob
Putin.

 

[fly high]

Ukraine claims to control 1,000 sq kms of Russian territory

Russian leader Vladimir Putin has described the cross-border offensive as a "major provocation".

www.bbc.co.uk

If true that's a big area.

 

[raymondo]

Ukraine claims to control 1,000 sq kms of Russian territory

Russian leader Vladimir Putin has described the cross-border offensive as a "major provocation".

www.bbc.co.uk

If true that's a big area.

I think it's true

 

[Triggaaar]

It would be the ultimate irony if at the end of this war Russia became annexed as part of Ukraine. Well, Putin would have achieved part of his goal, just not in the way he had hoped

I feel that Darth Putin should be posting a plan along these lines

 

[peterward]

Hi @peterward that was interesting thank you.
A personal question if that's ok: what route did your mother in law take back to Mariupol? (If you'd rather not say...no problem,).
And is she able to travel back to the UK if she wants?
Many thanks!

No problem mate. Sorry if its a bit long but hopefully better context.

It was primarily because the Russians issued that edict earlier in year, that any Ukrainian from Russian occupied areas who has left, had to return and register their properties with the Russian authorities by July 1st or they would be nationalised and confiscated. She has a house and an apartment that was her mother's and was determined not to lose them.

Since October last year there is only 1 official way to get to any part of Russian occupied Ukraine for anyone with a Ukrainian passport.

You can only go via Minsk in Belarus on special flights that go to a specific one of the 3 Moscow airports, Sherymetova. At Sherymetova your passport and phone is taken by FSB and you're interrogated ("filtration") only if you pass are you allowed in, if rejected you're banned from entering Russia or Russian controlled Ukraine anywhere from minimum 3 months up to indefinitely and are forced back onto return shuttle to Minsk.

My mother in law knew of a 72 year old Greek Ukrainian guy (family friend) who was also travelling back from Germany, to try and register his property. They both co-ordinated to meet in Warsaw, she flew from Luton in May. From Warsaw they'd paid for some minibus service that takes them to Minsk, it then drives onto Moscow and would take them from there if successful in interrogation to Mariupol.

It was 12 hours to Minsk, when they got there, it was another 22 hours to first available flight to Moscow, they had to stay at some shitty airport hotel in Minsk airport for Ukrainians, and they're forced to buy a return ticket if not successful in Moscow.

When she was in Minsk she was super nervous, she met an old Ukrainian fella living in Luxembourg who was 81 and was trying for the 3rd time to get back after having been rejected in filtration and banned for 3 months twice before.

There were 12 people on the minibus from Warsaw and on same flight to Moscow, my mother in law was in filtration for 8 hours, she passed, her family friend from Germany wad rejected and banned for 6 months, 5 of 12 passed, 7 rejected.

Her family friend who was himself once in Soviet army pleaded with the FSB officer and asked him why? And what threat could an OAP be?... he says the FSB officer pointed to his epaulettes on shoulder, then pointed up, to say "its coming from above"...... they are sure they're getting rejected so Russia can steal their homes and sell them cheaply to ethnic Russians as part of its efforts to ethnically cleanse Ukrainian controlled areas.

Most trying to get back on Ukrainian passports are getting rejected, a minority pass but fortunately for my mother in law she was one who did.

And we even think we know why! My Mrs lifelong best friend from school is pro Russian and believes all the bullshit, she argues with my Mrs no end but they're still close. About 2 months before my mother in law went home, she married a Russian former FSB officer and ceremony was in a town near Mariupol that's in the puppet state Donetsk people's Republic area, as people there are only allowed to use Telegram messaging app, and as my Mrs refuses to have it on her phone as its Russian, her friend sent all her wedding photos via my mother in laws phone who had telegram, about 6 weeks before she went back. There's my Mrs best friend from school, next to her fella in his FSB uniform with medals standing in front of a DNR flag...... all on mother in laws phone!

She has now already had to get a Russian identity card/internal passport to register her properties (which she now has).

Yes in theory she could come back to UK in reverse, via Moscow to Minsk, but we've told her she should get a Russian travel passport for as long as they are there as that entitles her to healthcare, there's none without and that would also mean she could leave and re-enter easily. She could even fly to Turkey etc on Russian and from there UK.

Obviously there is no perfect option and still in short/medium term having a Russian passport as awful as that is, is the least worst option in her situation and gives her more options to flee/escape if needed.

 

[essbee1]

And don't forget, the opportunity for and impact of planting hidden special force teams in Russian territory now cannot be underestimated
here. That's how it worked in NI. Storm a street on some jumped up pretext and, under cover, plant a
special forces team. There'll be pandemonium once they get going.

 

[Sirnormangall]

No problem mate. Sorry if its a bit long but hopefully better context.

It was primarily because the Russians issued that edict earlier in year, that any Ukrainian from Russian occupied areas who has left, had to return and register their properties with the Russian authorities by July 1st or they would be nationalised and confiscated. She has a house and an apartment that was her mother's and was determined not to lose them.

Since October last year there is only 1 official way to get to any part of Russian occupied Ukraine for anyone with a Ukrainian passport.

You can only go via Minsk in Belarus on special flights that go to a specific one of the 3 Moscow airports, Sherymetova. At Sherymetova your passport and phone is taken by FSB and you're interrogated ("filtration") only if you pass are you allowed in, if rejected you're banned from entering Russia or Russian controlled Ukraine anywhere from minimum 3 months up to indefinitely and are forced back onto return shuttle to Minsk.

My mother in law knew of a 72 year old Greek Ukrainian guy (family friend) who was also travelling back from Germany, to try and register his property. They both co-ordinated to meet in Warsaw, she flew from Luton in May. From Warsaw they'd paid for some minibus service that takes them to Minsk, it then drives onto Moscow and would take them from there if successful in interrogation to Mariupol.

It was 12 hours to Minsk, when they got there, it was another 22 hours to first available flight to Moscow, they had to stay at some shitty airport hotel in Minsk airport for Ukrainians, and they're forced to buy a return ticket if not successful in Moscow.

When she was in Minsk she was super nervous, she met an old Ukrainian fella living in Luxembourg who was 81 and was trying for the 3rd time to get back after having been rejected in filtration and banned for 3 months twice before.

There were 12 people on the minibus from Warsaw and on same flight to Moscow, my mother in law was in filtration for 8 hours, she passed, her family friend from Germany wad rejected and banned for 6 months, 5 of 12 passed, 7 rejected.

Her family friend who was himself once in Soviet army pleaded with the FSB officer and asked him why? And what threat could an OAP be?... he says the FSB officer pointed to his epaulettes on shoulder, then pointed up, to say "its coming from above"...... they are sure they're getting rejected so Russia can steal their homes and sell them cheaply to ethnic Russians as part of its efforts to ethnically cleanse Ukrainian controlled areas.

Most trying to get back on Ukrainian passports are getting rejected, a minority pass but fortunately for my mother in law she was one who did.

And we even think we know why! My Mrs lifelong best friend from school is pro Russian and believes all the bullshit, she argues with my Mrs no end but they're still close. About 2 months before my mother in law went home, she married a Russian former FSB officer and ceremony was in a town near Mariupol that's in the puppet state Donetsk people's Republic area, as people there are only allowed to use Telegram messaging app, and as my Mrs refuses to have it on her phone as its Russian, her friend sent all her wedding photos via my mother in laws phone who had telegram, about 6 weeks before she went back. There's my Mrs best friend from school, next to her fella in his FSB uniform with medals standing in front of a DNR flag...... all on mother in laws phone!

She has now already had to get a Russian identity card/internal passport to register her properties (which she now has).

Yes in theory she could come back to UK in reverse, via Moscow to Minsk, but we've told her she should get a Russian travel passport for as long as they are there as that entitles her to healthcare, there's none without and that would also mean she could leave and re-enter easily. She could even fly to Turkey etc on Russian and from there UK.

Obviously there is no perfect option and still in short/medium term having a Russian passport as awful as that is, is the least worst option in her situation and gives her more options to flee/escape if needed.

Thanks for that. It’s quite humbling to hear the lengths that ordinary innocent people have to go to try to reclaim some semblance of a normal life. It’s another world to our lives here.

 

[Sirnormangall]

And don't forget, the opportunity for and impact of planting hidden special force teams in Russian territory now cannot be underestimated
here. That's how it worked in NI. Storm a street on some jumped up pretext and, under cover, plant a
special forces team. There'll be pandemonium once they get going.

Good point. As much as I’d like to believe Ukraine can maintain its presence in Russia, I expect their comparatively small force will be forced back. But the incursion does indeed provide an opportunity to leave a few more “sleepers” behind to support the good work of others behind the lines.

 

[Eric the meek]

Ukraine claims to control 1,000 sq kms of Russian territory

Russian leader Vladimir Putin has described the cross-border offensive as a "major provocation".

www.bbc.co.uk

If true that's a big area.

It doesn't really compare with the areas that Russia annexed, but what it has done is have the most extraordinary effect on Russian morale.

They clearly didn't see it coming, and it is looking like they can't defend against it anyway. They are throwing untrained conscripted kids into it, and they are in disarray.

 

[raymondo]

No problem mate. Sorry if its a bit long but hopefully better context.

It was primarily because the Russians issued that edict earlier in year, that any Ukrainian from Russian occupied areas who has left, had to return and register their properties with the Russian authorities by July 1st or they would be nationalised and confiscated. She has a house and an apartment that was her mother's and was determined not to lose them.

Since October last year there is only 1 official way to get to any part of Russian occupied Ukraine for anyone with a Ukrainian passport.

You can only go via Minsk in Belarus on special flights that go to a specific one of the 3 Moscow airports, Sherymetova. At Sherymetova your passport and phone is taken by FSB and you're interrogated ("filtration") only if you pass are you allowed in, if rejected you're banned from entering Russia or Russian controlled Ukraine anywhere from minimum 3 months up to indefinitely and are forced back onto return shuttle to Minsk.

My mother in law knew of a 72 year old Greek Ukrainian guy (family friend) who was also travelling back from Germany, to try and register his property. They both co-ordinated to meet in Warsaw, she flew from Luton in May. From Warsaw they'd paid for some minibus service that takes them to Minsk, it then drives onto Moscow and would take them from there if successful in interrogation to Mariupol.

It was 12 hours to Minsk, when they got there, it was another 22 hours to first available flight to Moscow, they had to stay at some shitty airport hotel in Minsk airport for Ukrainians, and they're forced to buy a return ticket if not successful in Moscow.

When she was in Minsk she was super nervous, she met an old Ukrainian fella living in Luxembourg who was 81 and was trying for the 3rd time to get back after having been rejected in filtration and banned for 3 months twice before.

There were 12 people on the minibus from Warsaw and on same flight to Moscow, my mother in law was in filtration for 8 hours, she passed, her family friend from Germany wad rejected and banned for 6 months, 5 of 12 passed, 7 rejected.

Her family friend who was himself once in Soviet army pleaded with the FSB officer and asked him why? And what threat could an OAP be?... he says the FSB officer pointed to his epaulettes on shoulder, then pointed up, to say "its coming from above"...... they are sure they're getting rejected so Russia can steal their homes and sell them cheaply to ethnic Russians as part of its efforts to ethnically cleanse Ukrainian controlled areas.

Most trying to get back on Ukrainian passports are getting rejected, a minority pass but fortunately for my mother in law she was one who did.

And we even think we know why! My Mrs lifelong best friend from school is pro Russian and believes all the bullshit, she argues with my Mrs no end but they're still close. About 2 months before my mother in law went home, she married a Russian former FSB officer and ceremony was in a town near Mariupol that's in the puppet state Donetsk people's Republic area, as people there are only allowed to use Telegram messaging app, and as my Mrs refuses to have it on her phone as its Russian, her friend sent all her wedding photos via my mother in laws phone who had telegram, about 6 weeks before she went back. There's my Mrs best friend from school, next to her fella in his FSB uniform with medals standing in front of a DNR flag...... all on mother in laws phone!

She has now already had to get a Russian identity card/internal passport to register her properties (which she now has).

Yes in theory she could come back to UK in reverse, via Moscow to Minsk, but we've told her she should get a Russian travel passport for as long as they are there as that entitles her to healthcare, there's none without and that would also mean she could leave and re-enter easily. She could even fly to Turkey etc on Russian and from there UK.

Obviously there is no perfect option and still in short/medium term having a Russian passport as awful as that is, is the least worst option in her situation and gives her more options to flee/escape if needed.

Wow, thank you so much for taking the time to write out all those details for me .
Your mother in law is one tough cookie. Yes, I'd heard the edict about property registration. As you say, maybe she was lucky to get through filtration because of her contact with her friend.
Did mum in law clean up her phone before she went, did filtration examine it do you know?
Some very sad stories there of people being serially 'failed' at filtration .

You may have guessed I was asking because my wife's parents (now late 80s and ailing a little) are under occupation in Zaporizhzhia Oblast, and my wife has been wondering if there's any safe way she could possibly visit.
I will discuss with her, although the situation is obviously very different from your mother in law's. At least it's a possibility.

Many thanks again .

 

[peterward]

Wow, thank you so much for taking the time to write out all those details for me .
Your mother in law is one tough cookie. Yes, I'd heard the edict about property registration. As you say, maybe she was lucky to get through filtration because of her contact with her friend.
Did mum in law clean up her phone before she went, did filtration examine it do you know?
Some very sad stories there of people being serially 'failed' at filtration .

You may have guessed I was asking because my wife's parents (now late 80s and ailing a little) are under occupation in Zaporizhzhia Oblast, and my wife has been wondering if there's any safe way she could possibly visit.
I will discuss with her, although the situation is obviously very different from your mother in law's. At least it's a possibility.

Many thanks again .

Yes we did work on her phone in advance. Spent a while deleting anything of a pro ukrainain nature, deleted Viber, where she had made a good few pro Ukrainian comments.

Then used a program that overwrites all free space with random characters called ishredder, so deleted stuff cannot be retrieved, but leaving the Russians to find free space with random characters on examination would be too obvious and probably result in rejection, so we then finally downloaded some HD Russian films & TV series and literally again overwrote all free space with those films and TV series, filled her memory to the last MB, then started deleting them one by one over a few days as if she'd watched them.

We were advised to delete everything and overwrite the memory. If you go with brand new phone apparently it's automatic rejection.

Only way is via Minsk to Moscow to get in if Ukrainian passport, I wouldn't risk it with British passport in current climate.

 

[Binney on acid]

Have to say that whilst the Ukrainian incursion is to be applauded, and could potentially be a game changer, I'm really concerned for each and every one of the individuals involved. Rattling the cage of a genocidal psychopath will inevitably have dire consequences. I can't imagine any of them getting out of there alive. I hope to god I'm wrong, but I fear no more mister nice guy............

 

[Eric the meek]

Big* bavovna in Yekaterinburg, 2000km from Ukraine.

One suggestion is that it is a munitions depot.

*Big. Big. BIG. BIG !

 

[tedebear]

Have to say that whilst the Ukrainian incursion is to be applauded, and could potentially be a game changer, I'm really concerned for each and every one of the individuals involved. Rattling the cage of a genocidal psychopath will inevitably have dire consequences. I can't imagine any of them getting out of there alive. I hope to god I'm wrong, but I fear no more mister nice guy............

Agree, Putin is deranged. He forgets he invaded another country. But now they have invaded him, its provocation...Why hasn't this mad man been stopped...

 

[raymondo]

Yes we did work on her phone in advance. Spent a while deleting anything of a pro ukrainain nature, deleted Viber, where she had made a good few pro Ukrainian comments.

Then used a program that overwrites all free space with random characters called ishredder, so deleted stuff cannot be retrieved, but leaving the Russians to find free space with random characters on examination would be too obvious and probably result in rejection, so we then finally downloaded some HD Russian films & TV series and literally again overwrote all free space with those films and TV series, filled her memory to the last MB, then started deleting them one by one over a few days as if she'd watched them.

We were advised to delete everything and overwrite the memory. If you go with brand new phone apparently it's automatic rejection.

Only way is via Minsk to Moscow to get in if Ukrainian passport, I wouldn't risk it with British passport in current climate.

Thank you - all great advice, and I can see this is a very tough project that needs to be thought through carefully.
As you say, Ukrainian passport only.

Could be very complicated (impossible even) for my wife to get to her folks, just 30 miles south of the Zaporizhzhia front line , so it's not in the planning stage for us yet, more in the 'its an idea ' stage.

Anyway, best wishes to your mother in law. I hope she has enough friends still in Mariupol to rebuild some stability there.

 

[Eric the meek]

Thank you - all great advice, and I can see this is a very tough project that needs to be thought through carefully.
As you say, Ukrainian passport only.

Could be very complicated (impossible even) for my wife to get to her folks, just 30 miles south of the Zaporizhzhia front line , so it's not in the planning stage for us yet, more in the 'its an idea ' stage.

Anyway, best wishes to your mother in law. I hope she has enough friends still in Mariupol to rebuild some stability there.

@raymondo and @peterward, it is a rare thing that you give the rest of us a glimpse into what you have to deal with. When you do, it is a gut-wrenching experience, even for me, reading it from afar.

I can only pass on my very best wishes, and I'm sure the rest of us on here do as well.

Who knows - there may be light at the end of the tunnel. Let's all hope.

 

[raymondo]

@raymondo and @peterward, it is a rare thing that you give the rest of us a glimpse into what you have to deal with. When you do, it is a gut-wrenching experience, even for me, reading it from afar.

I can only pass on my very best wishes, and I'm sure the rest of us on here do as well.

Who knows - there may be light at the end of the tunnel. Let's all hope.

Thank you.
For me, sharing some of our personal experience on here is actually therapeutic, and tapping into other's experiences, eg @peterward is incredibly helpful.

Although my wife's family and friends are heavily affected by the war, I keep reminding myself that we are the lucky ones as they all remain alive.

 

[Eric the meek]

Back to business, and there are explosions in Kurchatov, west of Kursk city. Ukrainian troops are in both.

Kurchatov is where the Kursk nuclear power plant is.

As an aside, in googling Kurchatov, I find he was a Soviet nuclear physicist, who was known as 'the father of the Russian atomic bomb'.

 

[sparkie]

Have to say that whilst the Ukrainian incursion is to be applauded, and could potentially be a game changer, I'm really concerned for each and every one of the individuals involved. Rattling the cage of a genocidal psychopath will inevitably have dire consequences. I can't imagine any of them getting out of there alive. I hope to god I'm wrong, but I fear no more mister nice guy............

The pint sized goblin has never acted mister nice guy.

 

[raymondo]

Back to business, and there are explosions in Kurchatov, west of Kursk city. Ukrainian troops are in both.

Kurchatov is where the Kursk nuclear power plant is.

As an aside, in googling Kurchatov, I find he was a Soviet nuclear physicist, who was known as 'the father of the Russian atomic bomb'.

Looks like we may find out if the nuclear power station is a real tactical target (control of) or whether that would be a by product of taking the town.