[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Baldseagull]

They do.


Some people do have some doubt about the truth of Russian news.


Alternative channels are banned in Russia.


Russians don't believe the 'lying Western social media' when they're being fed lies on their main news all day every day. A lot don't use social media at all.

Russians are brainwashed. Just like people in China, who don't want the truth, they want what they've been taught to want.

A good number realise that their state news is one sided, but most of those also have the same level of distrust for western media, which is probably fair.

 

[Scappa]

 

[Triggaaar]

A good number realise that their state news is one sided, but most of those also have the same level of distrust for western media, which is probably fair.

So you think Russian media and Western media are equally trustworthy? Er, ok...

 

[Nobby]

It doesn't. Neither does pursuing pointless discussions about it.

This thread is about the Russia - Ukraine war. There has just been a catastrophic man-made environmental disaster. The worst one for decades.
Sometimes, a thread is just too important - and the subject too grave - to be derailed by tangential discussions around how timely people like their news.

Suitably admonished Eric
I have a friend in Ukraine - so it’s difficult trying to get up to date news.

 

[raymondo]

It seems not everyone in South Africa agrees with their government,'s friendly disposition toward Russia.

 

[Eric the meek]

Suitably admonished Eric
I have a friend in Ukraine - so it’s difficult trying to get up to date news.

Haha, thank you for taking it in such good spirit Nobby.

With the devastation of being flooded out, in the middle of a brutal war, not to mention being shelled while you evacuate, a lot of Ukrainians are suffering terribly. For them, news is becoming a valuable commodity.

But imagine if you had the misfortune to be an ordinary Russian.
If you were just one of the masses out in Siberia somewhere, you might lap up the news that is fed to you, and be none the wiser your entire life.
On the other hand, if you had a bit of nous about you, you would be forever wondering if the news you hear is real or made up, constantly weighing up the source with questions like 'can I trust this person?' and 'what is their agenda?'. Then, if you want to discuss your concerns with others, you need to it all again.

 

[raymondo]

Suitably admonished Eric
I have a friend in Ukraine - so it’s difficult trying to get up to date news.

Our NSC thread is very good at this. Many of us use different feeds (mainstream media and others, twitter follows and more). When you see a twitter post here that is timely and seems intelligent, then follow that person and get direct updates. If you think you've seen something before the rest of us... then post it here

 

[A1X]

What I find puzzling - and disappointing in all this - is that 'our' spooks seem to have been totally inneffective in countering Russia's domestic propaganda. Ordinary Russians still seem to believe their country is under threat, and if their boys are dying (but only a few of them, according to the propaganda machine) it's a necessary evil to protect Mother Russia.

The message doesn't need to be complicated -
1). Russia attacked Ukraine - end of.
2). Some Ukrainian cities have been razed to the ground (irrefutable photographic evidence available).
3). That has caused the death of hundreds/thousands of unarmed civilians .................
4). ......and made thousands more homeless.
5). That even if Russia 'wins' this 'military exercise', all it will win is a desolate and nuclear dangeros wasteland.

It'll take time, and will have oovercome enormous cultural resisitance - but surely it is a way forward. A way which may be being tried, but isn't getting far, it seems. Come on our spooks - up your game FFS!

It's culturally engrained in them from a young age. It's not as prevalent or as deep, but the same thinking exists on many areas in the west. Look at the US and gun ownership, outside the US basically everyone see it as utterly mad, but the internal propaganda from it indoctrinates people into thinking it's the right way to think.

 

[raymondo]

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I've read a few feeds about this, including some ridicule of the military from Prigozhin. Hilarious.

 

[The Clamp]

If it’s defeated, Russia should be dissolved and shared out among its neighbouring territories. It must no longer exist as a sovereign nation called Russia .

Russia should no longer exist.

 

[A1X]

If it’s defeated, Russia should be dissolved and shared out among its neighbouring territories. It must no longer exist as a sovereign nation called Russia .

Russia should no longer exist.

Aha, the ghost of Georges Clemenceau rises.

 

[Eric the meek]

If it’s defeated, Russia should be dissolved and shared out among its neighbouring territories. It must no longer exist as a sovereign nation called Russia .

Russia should no longer exist.

It's an interesting thought, given the backdrop of Putin's infamous speech on the eve of the invasion 'Ukraine should no longer exist'.

IMO, there is a growing chance it will happen anyway. It will be more preferable that it comes from the Russian people.

In today's globalised world, Putin is finding it more and more difficult to keep his people in the dark. His mask slipped with the mobilisation of the people. He can't convince the people he is winning the war for much longer. One estimate of the number of Russians leaving their country in 2022, is 1.2 million mainly younger, educated people. That's 1.2 million Russians now living abroad, witnessing the local coverage of the war, how unpopular Russia is, and communicating it to their families and friends back home in Russia. There will have been many awkward conversations, what with talk of meat grinders and 200,000+ casualties etc.

Why are people leaving Russia, who are they, and where are they going?

A trickle of Russians leaving became a stream after the full-scale invasion of Ukraine of 2022.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

It's an interesting thought, given the backdrop of Putin's infamous speech on the eve of the invasion 'Ukraine should no longer exist'.

IMO, there is a growing chance it will happen anyway. It will be more preferable that it comes from the Russian people.

In today's globalised world, Putin is finding it more and more difficult to keep his people in the dark. His mask slipped with the mobilisation of the people. He can't convince the people he is winning the war for much longer. One estimate of the number of Russians leaving their country in 2022, is 1.2 million mainly younger, educated people. That's 1.2 million Russians now living abroad, witnessing the local coverage of the war, how unpopular Russia is, and communicating it to their families and friends back home in Russia. There will have been many awkward conversations, what with talk of meat grinders and 200,000+ casualties etc.

Why are people leaving Russia, who are they, and where are they going?

A trickle of Russians leaving became a stream after the full-scale invasion of Ukraine of 2022.

www.bbc.co.uk

Yes. It's not up to the west to instigate and oversee the break up of another nation, no matter how despicable it is.

Russia will likely fracture on it's own.

 

[sparkie]

If it’s defeated, Russia should be dissolved and shared out among its neighbouring territories. It must no longer exist as a sovereign nation called Russia .

Russia should no longer exist.

It is not just one country anyway. It is termed the Russian Federation - more accurately the Russian Empire. In fact it is the Muscovy Empire.

They are at pains to pursue a historic link to the Kievan Rus but laughably Moscow didn't even exist way back then. Claim the link to the Kievan Rus to justify a claim to their "historic lands".

So just as the British, Spanish, French, Portuguese etc. Empires are long gone then so the Russian( Muscovy) Empire needs to follow them into history.

 

[Baldseagull]

So you think Russian media and Western media are equally trustworthy? Er, ok...

Not exactly equal, no, but have you seen Fox News, GB News, Daily Mail? Some sections of the media we consume in the West is almost as bad.

 

[Braggfan]

Yes. It's not up to the west to instigate and oversee the break up of another nation, no matter how despicable it is.

Russia will likely fracture on it's own.

I agree I don't think its up to to the west to oversee the break up of another nation. Its also worth remembering from history, that the treatment of Germany after WW1 is arguably what allowed Hitler's rise and gain popularity. Similarly the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, paved the way for ISIS. We have to be very careful about what comes after Putin and how we deal with it. I don't think there's a simple outcome that ticks every box. Obviously Putin going, and Ukraine regaining its territory are essential. But the break up of Russia and the west's role in it would be a very delicate problem.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I agree I don't think its up to to the west to oversee the break up of another nation. Its also worth remembering from history, that the treatment of Germany after WW1 is arguably what allowed Hitler's rise and gain popularity. Similarly the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, paved the way for ISIS. We have to be very careful about what comes after Putin and how we deal with it. I don't think there's a simple outcome that ticks every box. Obviously Putin going, and Ukraine regaining its territory are essential. But the break up of Russia and the west's role in it would be a very delicate problem.

Ultimately it's for Russia to determine what Russia looks like going forward. The role of the the rest of the world is to stand up for basic human rights and a rules based international order. That means, at present, sending a lot of weapons to Ukraine.

 

[Eric the meek]

15 months ago, we were talking about regime change in Kyiv.

Now we're talking about regime change in Moscow, and the break up of the Russian Federation.

 

[Triggaaar]

Not exactly equal, no, but have you seen Fox News, GB News, Daily Mail? Some sections of the media we consume in the West is almost as bad.

I've seen a bit of Fox and it's scary. I've not tried GB as I know it'll be bad. I've seen the mail and they only tell one side of any story, but it's not just flat out constant lying like Putin forces his press to do. They're not almost as bad, they're incomparable IMO.

 

[AstroSloth]

My approach would be to take the time to consider and evaluate the implications first.

The floods will be dramatic, but once the water has passed through, the land will recover, some of it within days.

The blowing up of the dam, the move of the Black Sea fleet to ports in mainland Russia, and the blowing up of the road between Ukraine and Russia (to prevent further incursions or even an invasion...), are all signs that Russia is on the defensive. Ukraine has got right under their skin and got them on the run.

I would offer the suggestion that the Ukrainian pre-offensive mind games have been more successful than they could have imagined.
I'm not a military analyst, and maybe it is wishful thinking, but I sense that if it is played well, this has the potential to end the war with little further actual conflict.

The amount of silt heading into the black sea and wetland areas are going to cause catastrophic environment impacts for years to come. This is a war crime breaching Article 56 of the Geneva Convention.