[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[Thunder Bolt]

Lost his mind you say....

won't use nuclear weapons they say....

Hopefully, his forces will have as much sense as the Russian submarine officer, Vasili Arkhipov,in 1962.

https://www.theguardian.com/science...rted-nuclear-war-awarded-future-of-life-prize

Launching a nuclear weapon is never, ever down to just one person.

 

[Badger Boy]

That question is for more intelligent people than me, I guess sit around, throw a few sanctions about, weaponize a nation in defence and sit around and hope for the best, it is then.


Personally I would have sounded the hierarchy in Russia out along time ago, when intelligence could see he was mobilising troops to take Crimea from that very first moment, it was clear that he would not stop there, and facilitated a change.

That is SUCH a cop out for someone so vocally critical of the response. To then not have an alternative is lazy and poor form. Much easier to throw stones than be decisive with a response, isn't it.

 

[The Clamp]

The Crimea response was too little, I agree. But I fail to see what more the west could have done about the actions today or indeed anything since the invasion this year. We've pumped Ukraine full of as many weapons as we can (well, the US and UK have) and built up a fairly comprehensive sanctions package against Russia. Sure there are a few loose ends we could do (stopping all Russian visas, for example), but there's not a whole lot more we can actually do. Barring extraordinary changes to the way the conflict is being fought, NATO will not directly engage Russian forces in any way, anywhere.

In my opinion, we missed our very real chance to head off an attack by not massing troops on all NATO borders with Russia when Putin started placing his army there. It was obvious he was going to a attack. He waited to see what our response would be to his troops on the border. And our response was feeble. So he attacked.

We should have imposed deep sanctions as soon as he gathered on the border. We didn’t. So he attacked.

We should have shown him what he would face if he dared step foot over the border. We failed to do so. So he attacked.


Now all we can do is stand by and hope he doesn’t launch a nuke.

 

[Insel affe]

That is SUCH a cop out for someone so vocally critical of the response. To then not have an alternative is lazy and poor form. Much easier to throw stones than be decisive with a response, isn't it.

eh !! have a go at me, why don't ya, I did not invade the Ukraine.

and what is this then..
"Personally I would have sounded the hierarchy in Russia out along time ago, when intelligence could see he was mobilising troops to take Crimea from that very first moment, it was clear that he would not stop there, and facilitated a change"

That is not a cop out, I am saying what I would have done.

 

[The Clamp]

eh !! have a go at me, why don't ya, I did not invade the Ukraine.

and what is this then..
"Personally I would have sounded the hierarchy in Russia out along time ago, when intelligence could see he was mobilising troops to take Crimea from that very first moment, it was clear that he would not stop there, and facilitated a change"

That is not a cop out, I am saying what I would have done.

Exactly. Nobody knows what to do now, not even the military except keep arming Ukraine, hope they win and hope in the meantime Putin doesn’t launch nukes of any kind. I think someone would retaliate if any kind of nuke was used. Some country would not be able to keep their powder dry.

 

[Triggaaar]

And...


All of that means what exactly to Russia and over 140 million Russians, so what if a few million leave and there is a brain drain, that leaves who precisely ? The not so clever, the coercible and the nationalistic folk who believe he rhetoric and are willing to believe and die for this us against the west. He can send a nuclear missile and now say it was the only option he had to defend against western attacks on Russian soil, we should not be letting this happen full stop.

We have missed a beat, and he is a step ahead again, it matters not what a jot what we or the west know as right or wrong.
We have now left the Ukrainian people out to dry, they cannot win this now, without the collapse of Putin and this regime.
To be honest it looks like we are unwilling to do that, other than offer weapons, tactical and moral support.

Putin will use a weapon of mass destruction now, in defence of these areas.

Oh good grief, what a load of nonsense. We're not a step behind Putin, and haven't been throughout this war, a war which against all odds, he is losing. Of course he can pretend the areas are now part of Russia, but it won't remove the support for Ukraine, and won't stop Ukraine continuing to take back territory. It means nothing. He could have fired nukes at the start of the war if he wanted. It wouldn't have meant Russia winning then, and it wouldn't now.

 

[Triggaaar]

We have let Russia steal Crimea

That I agree with. I think more should have been done then, although I don't know how prepared for a fight Ukraine were back then.

sat by why he built his army up on the Ukrainian border for months before they invaded

That's incorrect. We were training Ukrainian soldiers over the past 8 years, and giving them weapons, which increased as Russia prepared to invade. It's fairly obvious that it's worked, since Russia's easy peasy Special Operation has failed so badly that they're mobilising any man who can walk.

We have done far too little, and our response now is reactive not proactive.

There was nothing we could really do to stop Russia pretending these areas have voted to join Russia. What has been done that is proactive, is that the US has told Russia what will happen should they use a nuclear weapon. That may be enough to stop Russia doing it.

In the meantime, Ukraine will continue taking back its territory, including these annexed areas.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

In my opinion, we missed our very real chance to head off an attack by not massing troops on all NATO borders with Russia when Putin started placing his army there. It was obvious he was going to a attack. He waited to see what our response would be to his troops on the border. And our response was feeble. So he attacked.

We should have imposed deep sanctions as soon as he gathered on the border. We didn’t. So he attacked.

We should have shown him what he would face if he dared step foot over the border. We failed to do so. So he attacked.


Now all we can do is stand by and hope he doesn’t launch a nuke.

The problem with amassing troops is Putin would’ve called it an act of aggression. He’s already blaming NATO for expanding where countries have joined voluntarily as United we stand.
Diplomacy first as NATO is a defence force, not an aggressor.

 

[Triggaaar]

Putin exploits weakness. He is probing right now. Testing what we will or won’t respond to.’Psychobilly is right that we should have acted when he started massing troops on the Ukrainian border.

We did act. NATO knew he was going to invade, and prepared for it.

Look at Putin’s biggest threat so far “if you keep arming Ukraine you will face consequences the likes of which you cannot imagine”
We ignored him and he did….nothing.

Yes, we ignored his threat and continued to arm Ukraine, and his bluff was shown to be a bluff. We'll do the same with him claiming to protect these fake areas of Russia.

If he didn’t have nukes he would have been pounded into dust years ago. But he does have nukes and we have to be careful. I’d like nothing more than to see Putin in the ground. But it’s not that simple.

Indeed. That means we can't just stroll into Russia, but we can keep helping Ukraine, and Ukraine are winning.

 

[The Clamp]

We acted but not in an effective way to halt the invasion.

If someone is about to punch you, you don’t prepare to be hit.

 

[raymondo]

In my opinion, we missed our very real chance to head off an attack by not massing troops on all NATO borders with Russia when Putin started placing his army there. It was obvious he was going to a attack. He waited to see what our response would be to his troops on the border. And our response was feeble. So he attacked.

We should have imposed deep sanctions as soon as he gathered on the border. We didn’t. So he attacked.

We should have shown him what he would face if he dared step foot over the border. We failed to do so. So he attacked.


Now all we can do is stand by and hope he doesn’t launch a nuke.

I partly agree, Clamp, but at that time even Ukraine leadership were saying Russia would not attack, it's just intimidation. I'm sure I remember Zelensky asking America to just stop talking about a possible attack (I couldn't really understand why Ukraine said that at the time??). So, the last thing Ukraine would have seemingly wanted at that time...was a huge build up of NATO troops on Russian borders. It's weird thinking back, but that's how I remember it.

 

[Insel affe]

Exactly. Nobody knows what to do now, not even the military except keep arming Ukraine, hope they win and hope in the meantime Putin doesn’t launch nukes of any kind. I think someone would retaliate if any kind of nuke was used. Some country would not be able to keep their powder dry.

Yes, I agree, but this was all so bloody clear ages ago, and yes I predicted this years ago, if a simple lad from Shoreham Beach can see it, why could world leaders not. I am of the opinion some folks in the arms industry were probably advising certain world leaders, had a big fat cheque and profit in mind, rather than world security at the time. Not a lot of people will like that opinion, and that is all it is. We are where we are with it all now.

On your point of keeping their powder dry, thank your lucky stars Poland has no nuclear weapons, they are itching for revenge, after what the Russians did during the "liberation" from the Germans. I say that from first hand experience, my ex's grandad escaped the Germans from Kraków 1939 and was then captured by Russians a year later who wiped out any remaining family he had there, before he escaped from a camp and managed the same year to get to England and joined the 302 Squadron , he hated the Russians more than the Germans, because of it.

now he was a man, R.I.P Edwarda Wasik

 

[Insel affe]

That I agree with. I think more should have been done then, although I don't know how prepared for a fight Ukraine were back then.

That's incorrect. We were training Ukrainian soldiers over the past 8 years, and giving them weapons, which increased as Russia prepared to invade. It's fairly obvious that it's worked, since Russia's easy peasy Special Operation has failed so badly that they're mobilising any man who can walk.

There was nothing we could really do to stop Russia pretending these areas have voted to join Russia. What has been done that is proactive, is that the US has told Russia what will happen should they use a nuclear weapon. That may be enough to stop Russia doing it.

In the meantime, Ukraine will continue taking back its territory, including these annexed areas.

Ok, you must be right, sorry for getting involved and talking nonsense.
I will leave this thread alone now, I obviously don't know what I am on about.

have a good evening, and lets hope we win tomorrow or at least don't get slaughtered.

 

[Mr Bridger]

 

[raymondo]

I absolutely think Putin will use nuclear weapons. I think it’s inevitable.

I also think it's likely, that or chemical. When he's lost another 20% of the areas he's just annexed, he's staring down the barrel of defeat... he'll do something. A man who cares nothing about his own people that he'll despatch 100,000 of them to the meat grinder (mainly ethnic minorities of course) cares only about his own ego.
I still think Russia will lose, but it would be nice if they lost to a bloody domestic rebellion... wishful thinking at the moment, it needs tens of 000s coming back before there's a chance of that, but the mobile crematoria will ensure that doesn't happen.

 

[jakarta]

Yes, I agree, but this was all so bloody clear ages ago, and yes I predicted this years ago, if a simple lad from Shoreham Beach can see it, why could world leaders not. I am of the opinion some folks in the arms industry were probably advising certain world leaders, had a big fat cheque and profit in mind, rather than world security at the time. Not a lot of people will like that opinion, and that is all it is. We are where we are with it all now.

On your point of keeping their powder dry, thank your lucky stars Poland has no nuclear weapons, they are itching for revenge, after what the Russians did during the "liberation" from the Germans. I say that from first hand experience, my ex's grandad escaped the Germans from Kraków 1939 and was then captured by Russians a year later who wiped out any remaining family he had there, before he escaped from a camp and managed the same year to get to England and joined the 302 Squadron , he hated the Russians more than the Germans, because of it.

now he was a man, R.I.P Edwarda Wasik

Utter respect for the Poles. Last (pre COVID) holiday we did was Krakow (and rather hauntingly Auschwitz).

We let them down both before and after World War 2.

Good mate of mine at Polytechnic back in the 1980's was Polish - as you say they hated the Russians even more than the Germans.

 

[A1X]

We acted but not in an effective way to halt the invasion.

If someone is about to punch you, you don’t prepare to be hit.

What are you suggesting, that NATO should have stationed forces on the border of Ukraine, a non-NATO member?

 

[The Clamp]

What are you suggesting, that NATO should have stationed forces on the border of Ukraine, a non-NATO member?

No as I said earlier, only NATO countries. There are 5 that border Russia.

 

[The Clamp]

The problem with amassing troops is Putin would’ve called it an act of aggression. He’s already blaming NATO for expanding where countries have joined voluntarily as United we stand.
Diplomacy first as NATO is a defence force, not an aggressor.

They would indeed have called it an act of aggression. They would have thought twice about invading though.

 

[SeagullinExile]

No as I said earlier, only NATO countries. There are 5 that border Russia.

As people have already said. NATO is a defensive alliance, not an aggressor. If Russia built up troops on NATO borders, you can bet your house on them responding in kind, but Russia didn’t, so no build up was necessary.