[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

[tedebear]

I'm not sure there is such a thing as " Innocent Russians ". Most of the country firmly backs Putin and there have been little or no protests at the slaughter of Ukrainians or indeed the slaughter of their own conscripts and troops. By attacking Belogorad the Ukrainians are waking up the locals to the realities of war...hopefully they will start asking more questions of Putin as to why this is happening and why cant he defend Russia ?

How are you getting to that opinion? Most Russians would be carted off to the hell hole of one of their prisons if they so much as blinked in opposition to the war. Steve Rosenbergs piece on the BBC this morning is as interesting for what it is saying as what it is not....

 

[A1X]

I’m not really sure what makes you uncomfortable

I’m not convinced the killing of kids is a good way of winning hearts and minds, personally. We condemn Israel, Hamas and Russia for indiscriminately targeting civilians, I don’t see why we should be giving Ukraine a green light to do the same thing just because we like them.

There are plenty of legitimate targets for these missiles and drones. None of them are kids.

 

[Binney on acid]

interesting post. Thanks for sharing. I am now following Steve Rosenberg. The thing that really does pi$$ me off is how the genocide imposed upon Ukraine by Russia's great Tzar has impacted upon my thinking. I've always considered myself to be a fair minded, peace loving individual, but In all honesty, I reached a point sometime ago, where I'd just shrug my shoulders if Moscow became the new Hiroshema. Vile thoughts, but I'd attribute them to Putin's overwhelming desire to emulate the feats of Hitler, and his lifelong commitment to destabilising the west.

 

[Eric the meek]

How are you getting to that opinion? Most Russians would be carted off to the hell hole of one of their prisons if they so much as blinked in opposition to the war. Steve Rosenbergs piece on the BBC this morning is as interesting for what it is saying as what it is not....

Steve Rosenberg does pretty well, treading a difficult path, writing with his hands tied behind his back. He can't write freely of course.
He knows that if he puts a foot wrong, he could be arrested or told to leave Russia.

He can't criticise the war, nor put anyone in danger if they criticise the war.
I suspect that the reason he reports only from in or near Moscow, is because his ability to travel out to the regions is restricted.

So he gets people to talk about their £150 a month pension, the price of tomatoes, or films a bloke fishing. But even the fisherman, trying to catch fish under the ice, while wanting the war to end soon, doesn't accept that Russia started the war...

 

[Eric the meek]

Three ways the conflict could go in 2024:

Ukraine war: Three ways the conflict could go in 2024

We asked three military analysts how they think events may unfold in the coming 12 months.

www.bbc.co.uk

TL/DR? It's business as usual. Come back in a year's time.

None of them predict an outright victory for Ukraine or Russia.

None of them mention the Russian economy either. Perhaps Steve Rosenberg's piece is the one to take heed of.

 

[Triggaaar]

I’m not convinced the killing of kids is a good way of winning hearts and minds, personally.

Hearts and minds have been on Ukraine's side for 2 years, but that's not stopping Russia sending missiles. Maybe they feel it's time to try something else.

We condemn Israel, Hamas and Russia for indiscriminately targeting civilians, I don’t see why we should be giving Ukraine a green light to do the same thing just because we like them.

I can't believe you write that sincerely. It's nothing to do with like. Russia are constantly bombing Ukraine and you're suggesting that Ukraine shouldn't be able to fight back.

 

[A1X]

I can't believe you write that sincerely. It's nothing to do with like. Russia are constantly bombing Ukraine and you're suggesting that Ukraine shouldn't be able to fight back.

So some civilians deserve to be killed?

I am absolutely not saying Ukraine should not be fighting back. I am saying that the focus ought to be on removing Russian combatants from Ukrainian soil, not bombing kids.

 

[beorhthelm]

Hearts and minds have been on Ukraine's side for 2 years, but that's not stopping Russia sending missiles. Maybe they feel it's time to try something else.





I can't believe you write that sincerely. It's nothing to do with like. Russia are constantly bombing Ukraine and you're suggesting that Ukraine shouldn't be able to fight back.

indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas is not the same as fighting back. we call out the Russians as war ciminals for doing the same.

 

[Triggaaar]

So some civilians deserve to be killed?

How can a civilian deserve to be killed? You're adding 2 and 2 and getting 38.

I am absolutely not saying Ukraine should not be fighting back. I am saying that the focus ought to be on removing Russian combatants from Ukrainian soil, not bombing kids.

Ukraine has been focusing on that for 2 years and it's not working. Their kids are being murdered constantly, and in effect you expect them to do nothing? (given that continuing Russia's war on the front lines doesn't solve the issue). They've decided to also attack innocent civilians (like we did in WW2) in a hope that people in Russia stop and think 'oh, maybe we should stop this'.

 

[Eric the meek]

So some civilians deserve to be killed?

I am absolutely not saying Ukraine should not be fighting back. I am saying that the focus ought to be on removing Russian combatants from Ukrainian soil, not bombing kids.

Be careful. 'Bombing kids' is emotive. It implies deliberate intent. At present, we only have that information from Russian sources. As far as I know, no independent body has verified the Russian claims.

Ukrainian source say that the Russians bombed numerous civilian target two nights ago, including a maternity hospital and a kindergarten. The difference is we believe the Ukrainians and we don't believe the Russians.

The fog of war.

 

[Triggaaar]

indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas is not the same as fighting back. we call out the Russians as war ciminals for doing the same.

So you think Winston Churchill is a war criminal then. Ok.

 

[beorhthelm]

So you think Winston Churchill is a war criminal then. Ok.

if you want to play like that, by todays standards, yes. we dont expect military to engage in total war, to make the civilian populations a target. there are hundreds of other targets. you're saying a better way to prosecute the war is to target a public high street, rather than target a barracks, supply depot, rail hub, factory.

 

[GT49er]

if you want to play like that, by todays standards, yes. we dont expect military to engage in total war, to make the civilian populations a target. there are hundreds of other targets. you're saying a better way to prosecute the war is to target a public high street, rather than target a barracks, supply depot, rail hub, factory.

War - or total war? It's all the same, war is war, and there's no such thing as a clean war, and there is always only one objective: to win. There will always be collateral damage. Many of the Russian soldiers killed will have been innocent too, only there because they were forced to be. That's war - it's evil, but sometimes it is forced on the good guys.

 

[essbee1]

The bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were meant as a direct attempt to bring surrender of the Japanese army, which
is what happened. I guess the US believed that it would end the war in the Pacific full-stop, which is what it did.
Nobody would agree with how it was done. But I'm not sure at the time any other options were on the table.
The Japanese were warned - and after Hiroshima were warned once again. Incredibly sad whichever way you look at it.

 

[Nobby]

I’m not convinced the killing of kids is a good way of winning hearts and minds, personally. We condemn Israel, Hamas and Russia for indiscriminately targeting civilians, I don’t see why we should be giving Ukraine a green light to do the same thing just because we like them.

There are plenty of legitimate targets for these missiles and drones. None of them are kids.

The kids aren't targets. The kids shouldn't be dying. Nor should innocent civilians.
On either side

And they wouldn't be if the Russian side had not invaded and killed men women and children with no consequences. Their leader is a War Criminal.

I honestly don't know how exactly the Ukrainians supposed to act and feel?

That's fine Vlad, just keep bombing us and killing us and raping our women and abducting our children.

This is a War A1X - caused by the Russians. The Ukrainians should have been allowed to fight it like for like from the start.
One responsive attack following two years of multiple Russian attacks and deaths and you're feeling uncomfortable!!!!!

Maybe if Moscow was getting bombed, Putin may have been forced to negotiate and withdraw.
The West have just let it happen.
And if support wanes, then a lot more Unkrainian innocents will die.
If more Russians have to die for peace then so be it.

Slava Ukraini

 

[Triggaaar]

if you want to play like that, by todays standards, yes. we dont expect military to engage in total war, to make the civilian populations a target. there are hundreds of other targets. you're saying a better way to prosecute the war is to target a public high street, rather than target a barracks, supply depot, rail hub, factory.

No I am not saying that's a better way. What is clear is that they have been trying to target the military for two years, and it's quite clear that will not win the war. They don't have the ability to hit every area of the largest country in the world. They are desperate, so they are trying another way. It's easy for us to sit here and say we don't want civilians harmed, but that's what happens in every single all out war. No country accepts being bombed forever without trying to retaliate. I think it's unrealistic to expect Ukraine not to fight fire with fire, and I have no interest in criticising Ukraine given what Russia have been doing for the last 2 years.

 

[Eric the meek]

The kids aren't targets. The kids shouldn't be dying. Nor should innocent civilians.
On either side

And they wouldn't be if the Russian side had not invaded and killed men women and children with no consequences. Their leader is a War Criminal.

I honestly don't know how exactly the Ukrainians supposed to act and feel?

That's fine Vlad, just keep bombing us and killing us and raping our women and abducting our children.

This is a War A1X - caused by the Russians. The Ukrainians should have been allowed to fight it like for like from the start.
One responsive attack following two years of multiple Russian attacks and deaths and you're feeling uncomfortable!!!!!

Maybe if Moscow was getting bombed, Putin may have been forced to negotiate and withdraw.
The West have just let it happen.
And if support wanes, then a lot more Unkrainian innocents will die.
If more Russians have to die for peace then so be it.

Slava Ukraini

I can't argue with any of that Nobby. I think you've nailed it.

What I would add, is that it is obvious that Putin can sure bear a grudge. He absolutely will not stop.

In order for there to be a lasting peace, Russia has to lose. And lose big. Otherwise Putin, or his successor, will return when they have regrouped.
The war cannot end for Ukraine with that threat hanging over them.

 

[Scappa]

 

[Nobby]

I can't argue with any of that Nobby. I think you've nailed it.

What I would add, is that it is obvious that Putin can sure bear a grudge. He absolutely will not stop.

In order for there to be a lasting peace, Russia has to lose. And lose big. Otherwise Putin, or his successor, will return when they have regrouped.
The war cannot end for Ukraine with that threat hanging over them.

Agreed Eric.

The problem is Putin will not lose all the while the West prevaricate or deliberately delay support. It is in the US interest to see Russia in for the long haul.
Which just means more death and destruction for Ukraine for a long time to come.

I just can't see how this ends well for Ukraine - ever.

 

[crookie]

Interesting piece from David Axe about Russian losses around Avdiivka, and how unsustainable they are. Bit of positivity

Killing Russians By The Truckload Around Avdiivka, Ukraine’s M-2 Fighting Vehicles Are Showing How Russia Loses—And Ukraine Wins

Russia is counting on staying in the war for the long term. That’s its whole plan for victory. A plan a few battalions of Ukrainian vehicles have exposed as a farce.

www.forbes.com