Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
The Cuban people had no choice. Castro needed Russian investment so Russia said in return we'll put our missiles there. It was extortion.
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[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)
- Thread starter vegster
- Start date
The Cuban people had no choice. Castro needed Russian investment so Russia said in return we'll put our missiles there. It was extortion.
I think this is a very western view of the reality of the cold war. Firstly, yes those countries did have a choice - neither Albania and Yugoslavia were full members. And as for West Berlin, this was an oasis of western capitalism in the heart of eastern bloc territory - of course the allies were prepared to airlift (and then subsidise the city to the tune of billions of DM).
Obviously Stalin was a paranoid bloody-thirsty dictator, but did it really get any less tense? In 1961 tanks faced off at Checkpoint Charlie and in 1962 the wall went up when it became apparent the East Germans could no longer hold back a tidal wave of emigration that was threating to floor their economy.
Anyway back on topic I think Swansman is right - there have always been regional spheres of influence, and Ukraine has historically looked east. Imagine a Russian or Chinese base in the Republic but on the border with Northern Ireland - I can't really imagine we'd sit back and do nothing about that.
The Russians would call that a fair trade. Nobody made Castro go to Russia specifically for investment.
Meanwhile, anyone who seriously thinks that is any worse than some of the stuff the Americans were up to needs their head seen to - overthrowing democratically elected South American governments, propping up tyrannical central American governments and so on, even tolerating the appalling Duvalier dynasty in Haiti. The Americans made the lives of millions unbearable.
Kalimantan Gull
Well-known member
And the point is America's response then being equivalent to Russia's response now, the how and why of Russian missiles ending up off America's coast doesn't really matter...
All international relations is quid pro quo, investment for a favour.... Ukraine will benefit from joining NATO / hosting American missiles if and when
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
China isn't interested in us or Ireland. It's too busy investing in Africa or smaller independents.
Russia just wants to destabilise Europe full stop. Hence the interference in Brexit (yes the dreaded B word)
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-donor-arron-banks-met-russian-ambassador-11-times-174083
Do you really believe the two Russians wanted to see Salisbury Cathedral? Relatives still haven't had answer to the Novichock poisonings. Was it a warning to May?
Hungary tried to leave the Warsaw Pact in 1957 and the then Czechoslovakia in 1968, and both were quashed militarily. The Cold War was real.
Why did the East Germans want to escape to the West? Poverty and totalitarianism.
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
Who said America is going to put missiles in Ukraine? The debate is about NATO.
I know China isn't interested in Ireland, that is just an example and we should ponder what our response might be if they ever were.
As for Russia and Europe, I won't disagree with you there - but Ukraine is a very different situation from the EU and the Nato states as you well know. Ukraine is on it's doorstep and Russia is defending it's position and sphere of influence.
As for Hungary and Czechoslovakia, I wasn't arguing they didn't have freedoms. As for East Germany, well that is complicated. There wasn't really poverty in East Germany for most of it's 40 year history - but unlike West Germany where they benefitted from a massive influx of American cash under the Marshall plan, the East sent money east as war reparations. Remember, the Soviets lost millions of people to Germany and the west decided unilaterally they weren't going to be compensated - so the Soviets took it from East Germany. Of course people looked West as a beacon of freedom and wealth, but it's interesting to read that half of East Germans look back fondly at their former state and a society where money didn't matter as much and everyone had the guarantee of a roof over their head, a job and a health service.
I'm not advocating that sort of state but do feel it is important that we don't get a balanced view because for 40 years we had it indoctrinated into us that Eastern Europe was a homogenous grey gloomy place when that isn't really fair.
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
In principle, but talks have yet to begin.
Kalimantan Gull
Well-known member
I'm saying it
CNN is saying it? Put it this way, I would be astonished if Ukraine, once a member of NATO, didn't receive US missiles and other hardware / didn't receive shared technology to make their own missiles / didn't receive US funding to develop military installations / isn't part of plans for a NATO-wide missile defence system etc etc.This is what NATO means to the Russians, they wouldn't be as bothered if it was just a book club or if the countries just met once a month for cocktails.
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
I worked with a colleague from Belarus who had a very different opinion of Russia. She died of cancer, not being allowed to go back to see her family to say goodbye because they refused to give her a visa, saying she doesn't have British citizenship (she did) married to a British man. Her sisters weren't allowed to leave Belarus for a holiday to come and visit her either. That's within the last decade.
I have read accounts of Polish, Romanian, Czechs, and East Germans none of which appeared fond in my opinion.
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
I'm saying it
This is what NATO means to the Russians, they wouldn't be as bothered if it was just a book club or if the countries just met once a month for cocktails.
That article says small arms, ammunition and anti-tank missiles, not intercontinental missiles. There is a huge difference.
There are some shocking accounts from behind the iron curtain because the people at the top were not truly accountable, this was especially the case when Stalin was in power. However, those who weren't particularly political or bothered by issues caused by restriction of foreign travel were often much happier. There are some great documentaries online that give accounts from both sides.
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
Many athletes defected after sports events despite being state-sponsored since they were knee-high to grasshoppers.
Those in East Germany were particularly affected by the division because of family.
And what do you think the West wants to do with Russia? Same thing - destabilise it. There is no country on the planet that is anywhere near the US when it comes to destabilising countries and governments in the last 100 years. The West would love to take control of Russia with all their natural resources.
I have read multiple accounts from people in countries invaded or controlled by the US/NATO who werent too fond either. I've had classmates from Iraq who really doesnt view the US in a fond way.
There is also people in the west, such as me, who finds our ways appaling. We have all the riches in the world and could solve poverty and homelessness in a day but just wont.
I think you've bought the whole Western propaganda narrative: that there is good (us) and evil (them), which is a very very simple world view.
Dunno but you can bet both will be playing us at 5.30 on a Saturday
Thunder Bolt
Silly old bat
Again, you are conflating NATO with America. NATO decisions are taken in Britain and Belgium not in Washington.
I don't agree with a lot of America's decisions, but NATO does have a voice of its own.
Insel affe
HellBilly
What the US wants and what NATO wants have a very strong connection. Its funny how the propaganda machine (a.k.a. media) are very quick to mention Russian influence in elections while completely ignoring the influence the US has had and likely will have. When you all go to war to bomb some nation somewhere, US is the main beneficiary, when what is public turns private in Europe, American businesses are the ones who benefit the most from it... American influence shaped the modern western world. They've infiltrated our politics, cultures and businesses and steered western Europe into becoming a mini-America. We're all in the pockets of the American oligarchy.
Two things:
1) You have been quite happy to conflate the Warsaw Pact with Russia
2) You're kidding yourself if you think NATO decisions are not heavily American influenced. I seem to recall Trump having a strop only last year talking about heavily reducing US contributions to NATO. Now he may be a boorish man-child but that kind of US attitude is never too far from the surface even when the US President of the day is far more diplomatic and nuanced.