[News] Russia at it again ? Litvenenko #2 ?

[Ernest]

Getting even weirder now, deadly nerve agent administered but Yulia Skripal now up and about yapping away to all and sundry

 

[papajaff]

Getting even weirder now, deadly nerve agent administered but Yulia Skripal now up and about yapping away to all and sundry

And that makes it ok does it?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Getting even weirder now, deadly nerve agent administered but Yulia Skripal now up and about yapping away to all and sundry

Military scientists will have been testing out a whole raft of antidotes. Probably learnt a lot.

 

[carlzeiss]

Getting even weirder now, deadly nerve agent administered but Yulia Skripal now up and about yapping away to all and sundry

Good news shirley .

 

[Simster]

trouble is Ernest, no else can make it. most European nations and US have accepted the evidence (not publically available, because you know secret shit), so you have to either accept they know it was Russia or accept the Mirror and pro-Russian groups know otherwise. all these groups are doing is feeding into the Russian agenda to spread fear and disharmony.

No-one is saying is wasn't made in Russia, just that it might not have been the Russian state ordering the killing. If he was a spy, he's was probably responsible for dozens of Russian deaths (or less serious forms of compromising). Some of those people will have friends in high places. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that this is the work of Russian organised crime who don't give a toss about international relations as long as they got their man (and his daughter).

I'm far from convinced this is the work of the Russian state myself. Do you honestly believe a word that comes out of fat Boris' mouth? He's a grade A bullshitter. I'd want evidence.

 

[stss30]

No-one is saying is wasn't made in Russia, just that it might not have been the Russian state ordering the killing. If he was a spy, he's was probably responsible for dozens of Russian deaths (or less serious forms of compromising). Some of those people will have friends in high places. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that this is the work of Russian organised crime who don't give a toss about international relations as long as they got their man (and his daughter).

I'm far from convinced this is the work of the Russian state myself. Do you honestly believe a word that comes out of fat Boris' mouth? He's a grade A bullshitter. I'd want evidence.

Boris is a complete liability, however I suspect MI6 have some pretty concrete intelligence, otherwise I doubt the government and other European powers would have sanctioned Russia in the way that they have.

 

[jakarta]

this is the work of Russian organised crime who don't give a toss about international relations as long as they got their man (and his daughter). I'm far from convinced this is the work of the Russian state myself.

I was listening to an experienced Security Analyst on LBC a couple of weeks back who pointed out that the Russian State and Russian Mafia are virtually the same thing these days.

 

[Ernest]

Good news shirley .

Bad news for the government if what happened differs from what they said had happened

 

[Simster]

Boris is a complete liability, however I suspect MI6 have some pretty concrete intelligence, otherwise I doubt the government and other European powers would have sanctioned Russia in the way that they have.

You see I was thinking this through and arrived at a similar conclusion. But then it occurred to me that if that was actually the case, Boris would have been briefed and then probably passed this evidence to the leader of the opposition given that it is not in the national interest for Corbyn to continue questioning it publicly if there is evidence that proves it.

I was listening to an experienced Security Analyst on LBC a couple of weeks back who pointed out that the Russian State and Russian Mafia are virtually the same thing these days.

Well yes, I'm fully prepared to believe that the upper echelons of power there include organised crime, but surely there is a line in the sand on things like this. It would surely be a case of "well if you want him dead, you do it - but there must be no trail leading back to the Kremlin".

 

[Ernest]

You see I was thinking this through and arrived at a similar conclusion. But then it occurred to me that if that was actually the case, Boris would have been briefed and then probably passed this evidence to the leader of the opposition given that it is not in the national interest for Corbyn to continue questioning it publicly if there is evidence that proves it.
".

The government admitted today that no evidence has been shown to Jeremy Corbyn which shows perhaps that they don't have anything concrete

 

[Simster]

The government admitted today that no evidence has been shown to Jeremy Corbyn which shows perhaps that they don't have anything concrete

More breathtaking incompetence from this current administration then. Not a surprise. This is honestly the most feeble government I can remember.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Well yes, I'm fully prepared to believe that the upper echelons of power there include organised crime, but surely there is a line in the sand on things like this. It would surely be a case of "well if you want him dead, you do it - but there must be no trail leading back to the Kremlin".

I’m not sure the upper echelons of power ordered this directly, perhaps someone high up in the SVR signed off a ‘long list’ of a few dozen targets to be assassinated. I doubt the Kremlin would want to sanction something that could be traced directly back to Moscow so easily after the Litvinenko affair.

Speaking of which, I wonder if Igor (assumed master of disguise) was up to his old tricks again?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_the_Assassin

 

[beorhthelm]

The government admitted today that no evidence has been shown to Jeremy Corbyn which shows perhaps that they don't have anything concrete

or perhaps shows the security clearance he has, which given his position of "believe Russia" seems wise.

other national leaders have stepped up and said they've seen evidence, its credible, so maybe give that more consideration.

 

[beorhthelm]

No-one is saying is wasn't made in Russia, just that it might not have been the Russian state ordering the killing. If he was a spy, he's was probably responsible for dozens of Russian deaths (or less serious forms of compromising). Some of those people will have friends in high places. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that this is the work of Russian organised crime who don't give a toss about international relations as long as they got their man (and his daughter).

I'm far from convinced this is the work of the Russian state myself. Do you honestly believe a word that comes out of fat Boris' mouth? He's a grade A bullshitter. I'd want evidence.

this is nothing to do with Boris going off piste. your arguement would imply Russia doesnt have control of its chemical weapons labs. its possible but probability seems fairly low.

 

[Half Time Pies]

this is nothing to do with Boris going off piste. your arguement would imply Russia doesnt have control of its chemical weapons labs. its possible but probability seems fairly low.

Absolutely, its worth also bearing in mind that Russia was also meant to have destroyed its chemical weapons stock so isn't meant to have any in the first place.

Even less probable that they would allow a nerve agent from their secret chemical weapons programme to fall in to the hands of others.

 

[symyjym]

I have heard it described as a Russian recipe, but no one has died. And if the claim is it was smeared onto his car handle and didn’t even kill him, then I am really surprised that anyone other than his daughter would have been affected with it. The Media were claiming several tens of people, and a policeman, had been infected, and were in hospital, when Skripal probably had 90% of the dose and survived.

If Putin wanted to kill someone he wouldn’t use something that just gave the victim bad diarrhea for a couple of days.

This story would only make sense if he actually died and it looks more like an opportunity to demonise Russia because the government doesn’t like the Syria issue.

 

[Half Time Pies]

I have heard it described as a Russian recipe, but no one has died. And if the claim is it was smeared onto his car handle and didn’t even kill him, then I am really surprised that anyone other than his daughter would have been affected with it. The Media were claiming several tens of people, and a policeman, had been infected, and were in hospital, when Skripal probably had 90% of the dose and survived.

If Putin wanted to kill someone he wouldn’t use something that just gave the victim bad diarrhea for a couple of days.

This story would only make sense if he actually died and it looks more like an opportunity to demonise Russia because the government doesn’t like the Syria issue.

What a strange statement, Sergei Skripal is still in a critical condition in hospital, if as is expected it is also identified by the OPCW as being Novichok then its one of the most toxic nerve agents out there and not something that just gives someone a bad case of Diarrhea.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

An interesting read (this thread). I have look up the substances and find that they are lowish molecular weight organophosphorus-type covalent acetylcholinesterase inhibitors, like sarin and VX. So, here are some facts, based upon my understanding as a pharmacologist.

1. The chemicals themselves are easily synthesized. The tricky bit is ensuring that the chemist making the stuff isn't poisoned by his/her own handiwork. The antidote, pralidoxime, is most effective when administered immedately, owing to the covalent binding of the poison to AChE.

2. The clever bit about them is the formulation, which is, depending on the exact molecule (i) a means of rendering it safe until mixed with a primer (i.e., the powder is a 'prodrug') a bit like when you mix two tubes of slop to make a super hard glue or (ii) a means of rendering the chemical extremely short lived such that any left over will biodegrade, precluding accurate detection after the fact.

3. There is no proof that the nerve agent used was a novichok ('newcomer') made in russia because it (or its metabolite or breakdown product) does not come with a bar code. When Porton down said they can't say for certain (etc etc) is a bit like saying a bag full of pure coke arriving on a plane from Columbia cannot be identified for certain as emanating from Columbia. Blaming Russia (or the Russian state) is based on circumstantial evidence, or other info that the secret service has acquired. However, the Russian state chutzpa suggests they know the drug can never be traced to Russia, whether or not the Russian state, the Russian mafia, or Ernst Stavro Blofeld were behind it all.

And I doubt that the burdon of proof will ever be lightened by the emergence of 'more evidence' or a tearful confession by Putin or one of his disaffected underlings.

I can go back to sleep now, I suspect.

 

[symyjym]

What a strange statement, Sergei Skripal is still in a critical condition in hospital, if as is expected it is also identified by the OPCW as being Novichok then its one of the most toxic nerve agents out there and not something that just gives someone a bad case of Diarrhea.

Critical condition? Yulia, 33, thanked the people of Salisbury for coming to her aid when she and her father, the former Russian spy Sergei Skripal, were “incapacitated”, and she praised medical staff for nursing them both. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...everyone-is-getting-better-russian-tv-reports

So he got a full dose of "one of the most toxic nerve agents out there" but survived Obviously not one of the most toxic nerve agents

 

[ManOfSussex]

Getting even weirder now, deadly nerve agent administered but Yulia Skripal now up and about yapping away to all and sundry

On Sky News a couple of weeks back they interviewed a Russian scientist who worked on Novichok for The Soviet Union - he said they wont survive as there's no treatment for it and the moment you turn their life support machines off they're dead.