[News] RIP FW de Klerk

[Happy Exile]

I was there about the same time BL and again the only people I knew were white. I soon realised that what they missed most was bullying the blacks out there.
They knew the game was up.
That’s not to say I didn’t meet many wonderful people. Even the people I knew beforehand turned out more racist than I could ever imagined.
I had to give arguing up with them all because I was only there for less than two months and wasn’t going to change them.

I suppose I could play devils advocate and say they all told me that there were things I couldn’t possibly know about.

This was my experience too pretty much, travelling from Johannesburg to Cape Town over the course of 6 weeks in 2001. Met some great people and met many appalling white racists too including some South Africans whom I'd met in England previously and who'd seemed fine before. I'm lucky to have travelled quite a lot but I've never felt so constantly on edge and unsafe as I did there.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Indeed, if you measure everything in economic terms...... but using political representation, career opportunity, personal safety, future prospects..... then the 5m white population is now at a real disadvantage in life, those who were not even born during the apartheid era, are now under the yoke of another racist regime.... two wrongs definitely won't make a right.

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A disadvantage compared to here (for example) certainly, but your average white family in SA is still doing rather nicely compared to the average rural or township black family who have the same disadvantages and have been completely ignored/shafted by the government.

As for FW de K, yes he helped to bring about transition but I do know that there was an awful lot of state/"special services" lead agitating going on fueling the violence in the run up to the 1994 election and as he was still in charge then people can draw their own conclusions. RIP none the less.

 

[Eeyore]

I was there about the same time BL and again the only people I knew were white. I soon realised that what they missed most was bullying the blacks out there.
They knew the game was up.
That’s not to say I didn’t meet many wonderful people. Even the people I knew beforehand turned out more racist than I could ever imagined.
I had to give arguing up with them all because I was only there for less than two months and wasn’t going to change them.

I suppose I could play devils advocate and say they all told me that there were things I couldn’t possibly know about.

I think there was a lot of fear. Me and my other half surprised a friend in Joburg and ended up staying there for two days. Lovely and hospitable chap, but yes, an attitude towards blacks that rather shocked me. Mainly his assumption of them being in service. I remember being in a bar with him where he treated the waiter like a bond servant. I was very polite to the waiter who I think felt a bit uncomfortable with such treatment, or not used to it.

The person I stayed with was the opposite. Very wealthy, he had a black lady doing the house work but had built her a house of her own. They had a very warm friendship and were loyal to each other. I was quite surprised at how black women seemed to experience a double form of discrimination. Apartheid and being treated as second class citizens within their own culture. I asked a black Zimbabwean female friend about what I had seen upon my return. She confirmed that it was often the case.

When we set off for Joburg I was loaned a bucky for the drive. As I left my friend came out and said 'You should take this with you' and handed me a loaded revolver. I didn't want to take it but he said I should and told me of the hijackings. When I got to Pretoria my host said straight away to move the bucky into a neighbour's compound as it 'wouldn't be there in the morning'. He then proudly showed me the guns in his house.

On the way back to Pretoria we took a wrong turning and drove along some country roads. A dangerous thing to do. We passed through a small township and then overtook a small bus with locals on it. As we reached a junction the driver of the vehicle pulled up next to us and began to glare through our window. My other half stupidly glared back despite my instruction not to. I sensed a situation was about to develop and we were outnumbered and may be in trouble. I reached down and pulled the gun up to my waist, keeping it hidden. I was gripped with fear and somehow shocked that I had reverted to preparing for a worst case scenario.

We managed to pull out the junction and sped off. I had been instructed not to stop at junctions if I could avoid it, that was where the ambushes took place. When I got back to Pretoria I took another wrong turn and ended up driving through a market on a different side of town. When we finally got back and relayed the story my friend told me we had got lucky. It was such a relief.

So I could sense the fear that some had. But is doesn't hide the fact that the divisions in the country were wrong. There was a fear of the rise in rampant crime, but when you dehumanise people for so long how do you expect some of them to react ? But I also understood that many white folk, including those I met, wanted a better country where everyone thrived. They were just afraid.

And that day so was I.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Might upset a few on here, but a real 'old school' statesman, who made some tough and brave calls and almost certainly averted a bloody civil war in South Africa.

RIP

The only people who might be upset by your eulogy are those who regret his willingness to enfranchise the 'blecks'. Das Reich, perhaps.

 

[Questions]

I think there was a lot of fear. me and my other half surprised a friend in Joburg and ended up staying there for two days. Lovely and hospitable chap, but yes, an attitude towards blacks that rather shocked me. Mainly his assumption of them being in service. I remember being in a bar with him where he treated the waiter like a bond servant. I was very polite to the waiter who I think felt a bit uncomfortable with such treatment, or not used to it.

The person I stayed with was the opposite. Very wealthy, he had a black lady doing the house work but had built her a house of her own. They had a very warm friendship and were loyal to each other.

When we set of for Pretoria I was loaned a bucky for the drive. As I left my friend came out and said 'You should take this with you' and handed me a loaded revolver. I didn't want to take it but he said I should and told me of the hijackings. When I got to Pretoria my host said straight away to move the bucky into a neighbour's compound as it 'wouldn't be there in the morning'. He then proudly showed me the guns in his house.

On the way back to Pretoria we took a wrong turning and drove along some country roads. A dangerous thing to do. We passed through a small township and then overtook a small bus with locals on it. As we reached a junction the driver of the vehicle pulled up next to us and began to glare through our window. My other half stupidly glared back despite my instruction not to. I sensed a situation was about to develop and we were outnumbered and may be in trouble. I reached down and pulled the gun up to my waist, keeping it hidden. I was gripped with fear and someone shocked that I had reverted to preparing for a worst case scenario.

We managed to pull out the junction and sped off. I had been instructed not to stop at junctions if I could avoid it, that was where the ambushes took place. When I got back to Pretoria I took another wrong turn and ended up driving through a market on a different side of town. When we finally got back and relayed the story my friend told me we had got lucky. It was such a relief.

So I could sense the fear that some had. But is doesn't hide the fact that the divisions in the country were wrong. There was a fear of the rise in rampant crime, but when you dehumanise people for so long how do you expect some of them to react ? But I also understood that many white folk, including those I met, wanted a better country where everyone thrived. They were just afraid.

And that day so was I.

One of my South African friends kept telling me that we would be ok as long as we didn’t do anything stupid and remained alert. He then got into his car and drove off with his wallet on the roof and bank notes were flying everywhere…. He shouted to me in the car behind to help………. I told him to **** off.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So in short, old FW wasn't so bad after all?

Mate, nobody is saying he was bad. There is no axe that needs to be ground, here

 

[portlock seagull]

I did 90% of my schooling in SA and Rhod ... left there in 77, returned twice, in 2010 and 2017... let me tell you, it's just like a mirror image has been created. White south Africans, majority of them Afrikaaners descended from the Dutch colonists, are arrogant horrible people....... but...... they have lived in that part of Africa for as long as, or longer than the vast majority of the existing black SA population, who largely migrated south into SA from the 16thC onwards. As a white person of any heritage, you are now a 2nd class citizen, are murdered, are robbed and are still contributing 90% of the tax take due to endemic unemployment presided over by the ANC and the militant EFF ... both racist by tradition, both determined to steal as much as they can from the white and Indian population.

It's a basket case of Sodom and Gomorrah proportions which will be destitute within 20 years.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Funny, all the white SA I know inc family are rich and live extremely good lives albeit behind gates and fences as is normal for anybody living in a house really. They’re far from 2nd class or robbed. It’s easy to hyperbole about SA. Has always been thus, since the end Apartheid. I remember to go while still could in the 90s and 00s. But it hasn’t collapsed as everyone said it would decades ago. Who’s been where longer isn’t especially relevant, you can’t really claim any white communities were there before black. Displacement is a natural consequence of colonialism. Anyway, it’s a troubled region for sure but then it always has been. Long before any Tall Ships turned up. Least the frequent genocides have stopped or are on hold at least.

 

[Jeremiah]

Who's actually doing the singing (the verses), I know the voice but just cant place it.

Boring Bob Grover ?

 

[Seagull58]

Having lived there for 12 years, I can tell you that there are millions of 2nd class citizens in SA but not many of them are white.

I lived there from 2010 to March this year and, of course, you're right, and that is largely due to the history of white colonialism and Apartheid. However, it's undoubtedly also true that the ANC leadership at all levels has done very little over the past 15 years (at least) other then using their political power and patronage network to enrich themselves personally. Even the long-running program of building RDP houses to rehome people from the informal settlements and the townships has been totally mired in corruption with millions of houses handed out to people who had no right to them and, in many many cases already owned decent houses, so that they could rent them out illegally to the people who really needed them.
It's also true that the BBBEE (Broad-based black economic empowerment) legislation makes it very difficult for white people to get jobs, especially white males, except in very small, privately-owned businesses.
The Afrikaners are a dislikeable bunch with a massive collective chip on their shoulder about being "deprived" of the country they "built". I encountered their racist behaviour on many occasions, typically in the way they addressed black men as "boy". It's worth noting though, that the Dutch arrived in The Cape over a hundred years before the Zulus came down from what is now Mozambique and Zimbabwe and built their empire by slaughtering an estimated half a million black inhabitants from other tribes. The answer I was given a number of times when I pointed this out was that they're Africans so it's different.

 

[KZNSeagull]

I lived there from 2010 to March this year and, of course, you're right, and that is largely due to the history of white colonialism and Apartheid. However, it's undoubtedly also true that the ANC leadership at all levels has done very little over the past 15 years (at least) other then using their political power and patronage network to enrich themselves personally. Even the long-running program of building RDP houses to rehome people from the informal settlements and the townships has been totally mired in corruption with millions of houses handed out to people who had no right to them and, in many many cases already owned decent houses, so that they could rent them out illegally to the people who really needed them.
It's also true that the BBBEE (Broad-based black economic empowerment) legislation makes it very difficult for white people to get jobs, especially white males, except in very small, privately-owned businesses.
The Afrikaners are a dislikeable bunch with a massive collective chip on their shoulder about being "deprived" of the country they "built". I encountered their racist behaviour on many occasions, typically in the way they addressed black men as "boy". It's worth noting though, that the Dutch arrived in The Cape over a hundred years before the Zulus came down from what is now Mozambique and Zimbabwe and built their empire by slaughtering an estimated half a million black inhabitants from other tribes. The answer I was given a number of times when I pointed this out was that they're Africans so it's different.

Yes, I know re your first 2 paragraphs. I left in 2016. Whites may not have any political power anymore but most are still doing very nicely for themselves. Much better than your average rural/township black family that has been completely forgotten by the ANC.

The San people were in parts of what is now SA before any Europeans or Zulus arrived.

 

[Seagull58]

Yes, I know re your first 2 paragraphs. I left in 2016. Whites may not have any political power anymore but most are still doing very nicely for themselves. Much better than your average rural/township black family that has been completely forgotten by the ANC.

The San people were in parts of what is now SA before any Europeans or Zulus arrived.

Well yes, that was really the gist of my last point; The Khoisan were there much earlier and if the length of time you have been there and the way in which you took "ownership" of the land is a measure of your right to stay there or not, then the Zulus have less right to be there than the Afrikaners.

 

[PeterT]

I have been there several times and never had an issue personally but seen more guns than I ever want to see and taken ridiculous amounts of care to avoid such situations.

The last time I went we were in Port Elizabeth, one of the safer cities from what I am told. We were staying about a mile from the Boardwalk area of bars etc and thought we’d walk there along the coast as it was such a nice evening. When we got there the guards on the complex couldn’t believe we’d walked it, or that we hadn’t got a gun to check in at the reception.

There was a minibus available for the return journey but quite incredibly the minibus was just taking people one by one to their cars in the car park, ie it wasn’t even safe in their eyes to walk those 50 yards!

But nothing happened to us on those trips. I saw worse in Nassau where a guy drove past on New Years Day in broad daylight firing shots into the crowd where we had been standing 30 seconds previously. Two kids killed. And that isn’t a place I would have been remotely worried about visiting before seeing that happen.

 

[The Clamp]

I think there was a lot of fear. Me and my other half surprised a friend in Joburg and ended up staying there for two days. Lovely and hospitable chap, but yes, an attitude towards blacks that rather shocked me. Mainly his assumption of them being in service. I remember being in a bar with him where he treated the waiter like a bond servant. I was very polite to the waiter who I think felt a bit uncomfortable with such treatment, or not used to it.

The person I stayed with was the opposite. Very wealthy, he had a black lady doing the house work but had built her a house of her own. They had a very warm friendship and were loyal to each other. I was quite surprised at how black women seemed to experience a double form of discrimination. Apartheid and being treated as second class citizens within their own culture. I asked a black Zimbabwean female friend about what I had seen upon my return. She confirmed that it was often the case.

When we set off for Joburg I was loaned a bucky for the drive. As I left my friend came out and said 'You should take this with you' and handed me a loaded revolver. I didn't want to take it but he said I should and told me of the hijackings. When I got to Pretoria my host said straight away to move the bucky into a neighbour's compound as it 'wouldn't be there in the morning'. He then proudly showed me the guns in his house.

On the way back to Pretoria we took a wrong turning and drove along some country roads. A dangerous thing to do. We passed through a small township and then overtook a small bus with locals on it. As we reached a junction the driver of the vehicle pulled up next to us and began to glare through our window. My other half stupidly glared back despite my instruction not to. I sensed a situation was about to develop and we were outnumbered and may be in trouble. I reached down and pulled the gun up to my waist, keeping it hidden. I was gripped with fear and somehow shocked that I had reverted to preparing for a worst case scenario.

We managed to pull out the junction and sped off. I had been instructed not to stop at junctions if I could avoid it, that was where the ambushes took place. When I got back to Pretoria I took another wrong turn and ended up driving through a market on a different side of town. When we finally got back and relayed the story my friend told me we had got lucky. It was such a relief.

So I could sense the fear that some had. But is doesn't hide the fact that the divisions in the country were wrong. There was a fear of the rise in rampant crime, but when you dehumanise people for so long how do you expect some of them to react ? But I also understood that many white folk, including those I met, wanted a better country where everyone thrived. They were just afraid.

And that day so was I.

To be honest, sounds like he’d have been better off giving you a map rather than a gun

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yes, I know re your first 2 paragraphs. I left in 2016. Whites may not have any political power anymore but most are still doing very nicely for themselves. Much better than your average rural/township black family that has been completely forgotten by the ANC.

The San people were in parts of what is now SA before any Europeans or Zulus arrived.

Are the ANC now thick with former communists who are now bloated from their exclusive access to the trough? Are they attempting to create family dynasties like we've seen in India?

Even if they are, it's their gig, now, though.

Regarding who was there first, some Jamaicans felt that their freedom should have been followed by seven Black Star liners taking them 'back' to Ethiopia, because the Arawaks was there (in Jamaica) first. Most people think this is all a bit silly. Where will it end - the only people allowed being Adam and Eve, and even they need to stay inside the Garden of Eden - no poncing about up and down the Euphrates, the slags).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irWpxvAROsM

 

[GT49er]

There's been Aussie backbackers over here since forever. Love 'em to bits. But up until 1994 you never met a South African backbacker. Then suddenly the nasty arrogant f*ckers were everywhere. Well it was either that or stick around at home and learn to live in a multi-ethnic society. C***s

Wonder why they come here then, if they don't like multi-ethnic?

Nothing racist about pursuing a better life for your family or branching out yourself. South Africa has all the resources to be a great nation. But not with people like Jacob Zuma in power.

Fair point ......................

 

[The Clamp]

Wonder why they come here then?

Perception of shared values I would think.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

The San people were in parts of what is now SA before any Europeans or Zulus arrived.

These guys?

 

[Seagull58]

Are the ANC now thick with former communists who are now bloated from their exclusive access to the trough? Are they attempting to create family dynasties like we've seen in India?

Even if they are, it's their gig, now, though.

Regarding who was there first, some Jamaicans felt that their freedom should have been followed by seven Black Star liners taking them 'back' to Ethiopia, because the Arawaks was there (in Jamaica) first. Most people think this is all a bit silly. Where will it end - the only people allowed being Adam and Eve, and even they need to stay inside the Garden of Eden - no poncing about up and down the Euphrates, the slags).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irWpxvAROsM

The ANC/ Communist situation is an interesting one. The ANC is nominally a socialist party that has a tripartite alliance with the South African Communist Party and the SA equivalent of the TUC. The SACP doesn't stand in elections but the ANC gives them 15% of the parliamentary seats that the ANC wins under the proportional representation system. The SACP also has around 25% of government ministers in the (large, bloated) cabinet. All this without a single person voting for them. On the plus side, it does appear that the SACP members of the cabinet are less obviously corrupt than many of the ANC members.
If you read up on the situation when Jacob Zuma was president you will see that he used his presidency primarily to line the pockets of his Indian friends the Gupta brothers who fled to Dubai a few days before Zuma was persuaded to resign. Zuma's eldest children, twin siblings, are making attempts to enter politics but are mainly concerned with maintaining and growing their "business interests" in partnership with what remains of the Gupta business empire in South Africa.
It is not uncommon amongst the ANC leadership for their children to become successful in business fairly rapidly despite lacking obvious expertise and experience.

 

[Husty]

There's been Aussie backbackers over here since forever. Love 'em to bits. But up until 1994 you never met a South African backbacker. Then suddenly the nasty arrogant f*ckers were everywhere. Well it was either that or stick around at home and learn to live in a multi-ethnic society. C***s

Ah yes. The man who would rather 'bulldoze the Palestinians into the sea' than have to share Israel with them... Throwing stones at white South Africans for also being a bunch of nasty racists. Oh the irony

 

[KZNSeagull]

Are the ANC now thick with former communists who are now bloated from their exclusive access to the trough? Are they attempting to create family dynasties like we've seen in India?

Even if they are, it's their gig, now, though.

Regarding who was there first, some Jamaicans felt that their freedom should have been followed by seven Black Star liners taking them 'back' to Ethiopia, because the Arawaks was there (in Jamaica) first. Most people think this is all a bit silly. Where will it end - the only people allowed being Adam and Eve, and even they need to stay inside the Garden of Eden - no poncing about up and down the Euphrates, the slags).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irWpxvAROsM

No, Indian families were trying to take over though:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-48980964

I met the leader of the SA Communist Party several times as he used to come in my shop after staying in one of the most expensive hotels in the country with his wife, bodyguard and driver of his top of the range Merc. Nice one comrade.