[Football] Right then. After that demonstration... VAR? Yes or No?

[Bodian]

Personally i want VAR binned but:

View attachment 118670

Bit dubious how they work this out though (below) - didn't we have another goal ruled out? (they say 0 disallowed goals for, but then they mention Trossards). Wouldn't have said the Leicester one was in our favour - they scored anyway. Also, wasn't Luiz's flagged anyway (maybe not)? This is also purely decisions overturned - missing out the ones where red cards could/should have been shown and weren't.

Brighton & Hove Albion +6
Overturns: 8
Leading to goals for: 1
Disallowed goals for: 0
Leading to goals against: 0
Disallowed goals against: 5

Game: West Ham (H; Aug. 17)
Incident: Brighton goal for Leandro Trossard ruled out for offside by Dan Burn, who created the goal, 27th minute - AGAINST

Game: Aston Villa (A; Oct. 19)
Incident: Conor Hourihane goal ruled out for a foul by Wesley on Mat Ryan, 42nd minute - FOR

Game: Everton (H; Oct. 26)
Incident: Penalty awarded (scored by Neil Maupay) for foul on Aaron Connolly by Michael Keane, 78th minute - FOR

Game: Leicester (H; Nov. 23)
Incident: Jamie Vardy penalty retaken after James Maddison scored the rebound with encroachment, 80th minute - FOR

Game: Arsenal (A; Dec. 5)
Incident: David Luiz goal disallowed for offside, 63rd minute - FOR

Game: Sheffield United (H; Dec. 21)
Incident: John Egan goal ruled out for handball, 8th minute - FOR
Incident: Jack O'Connell goal disallowed for offside, 54th minute - FOR

Game: Tottenham (A; Dec. 26)
Incident: Harry Kane goal ruled out for offside, 24th minute - FOR

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Personally i want VAR binned but:

View attachment 118670

Trying to work those out.

For
Villa
Sheff utd x 2
Everton
Spurs
Arsenal

Against

West Ham
Bournemouth
Southampton

What have I missed?

 

[Bodian]

Trying to work those out.

For
Villa
Sheff utd x 2
Everton
Spurs
Arsenal

Against

West Ham
Bournemouth
Southampton

What have I missed?

See post above. They've missed the Southampton one, and it's not caught up with yesterday yet.

 

[pasty]

If they are going to persist with giving utterly ridiculous offside decisions like the Burn one yesterday, I can see defenders clicking on to this and start gently nudging attacking players forward into "offside" positions.

Like the one yesterday, when all the players were lining up for the initial free kick to come over, a "savvy" defender could easily nudge a player forward, gently enough to not give away a free-kick and let VAR rule out any possible goal because his left finger nail was offside.

 

[Bwian]

Before the season started I was in favour of VAR being introduced into our game. I naively believed it would help stamp out most of the diving and feigned head injury bullshit so prevalent these days. That shit is still infecting our game. The Albion have benefited from a number of correct decisions that otherwise would have been missed. We have also had perfectly good goals disallowed.

Maybe we'd be better off having two more assistant referees given more power to reverse obvious refereeing errors?

VAR as it is right now needs to be thrown out

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[Coldeanseagull]

I'm still more concerned over the length of time it's taking, not the outcome. Somes you get, somes you don't but when it's taking close on six minutes to make a decision, it just frustrates everyone

 

[London Irish]

It's really disappointing our offside goals don't count anymore but the upside is neither do the opposition's.

I can't see them tweaking to allow upper limbs to be offside as that surely would require even more intense study of VAR pictures and longer delays, and actually wouldn't reduce the number of marginal calls people are complaining about.

I can't see them adopting a margin of error latitude as that would just lead to arguments about how big or how small the latitude should be. That would just create another category of marginal calls people would moan about.

Players and eventually fans will adapt as they have always done for 150 years, VAR at the moment just appears to be lightning rod for other problems in the game such as the lack of clarity in rules on physical contact etc

 

[Iggle Piggle]

See post above. They've missed the Southampton one, and it's not caught up with yesterday yet.

Gotcha, thanks. Not sure how Leicester scoring was in our favour but there we are. Without VAR, any half decent lino should have also spotted the Sheff Utd and Arsenal offsides (and probably would have flagged). Still, having incorrect stats is in keeping with the inaccuracies of the technology.

 

[drew]

If most science undergraduates (and more than half the bloody staff where I work) don't know the difference between precision and accuracy, how can we possibly expect refs to know?

For the benefit of the general reader, the dart board example is a favourite of mine. Precision describes the degree of exactness (or reproducibility), and accuracy describes the degree of correctness. Thus three darts in the treble twenty represents precision, but it represents accuracy only if the objective was to score 180. If the dart player was going for double top then his arrows would be precise but not accurate.

The precision and accuracy issue relating to VAR is that the camera can tell you very precisely whether a player is offside or not, but the accuracy is dubious owing to when the frame was frozen and also how well the cameras' software can create an accurate 3d map of the event.

This is why I favour clear blue daylight. It does not address the precision/accuracy issue but it shifts it into an area that would make us feel better; instead of arguing about whether Murray's cock was or was not offside, we would be arguing about whether or not his trailing leg was or was not onside. And as noted above VAR has 20 seconds to decided. To fit my 'err on the side of the game' rule for 'impossible to decide' calls, if VAR can't decide in 20 seconds whether Murray's trailing leg is onside or not, call it onside.

I really do think I've solved VAR. Shame there is zero chance of any of this actually happeneing - it requires having clear objectives, well-founded basic premises, and an ability to beta test all scenarios. Unfortunately we have PL officials and referees who do not understand reason or logic, and are more interested in their own position.

Have to say that whilst I think VAR is here to stay, it does require drastic improvement/implementation!!!

Firstly, I don't agree with the daylight rule but maybe what they could look at is to change the rule so that you are not offside if part of your body is onside! Can't see it happening though.

It's a tricky one because what we want is the offside rule changed for those matches that are covered by VAR but to stay the same for the rest of football.

My view is that the referees in this country actually don't want it and see it as a slur on their reputation yet is is their failure to deal with situation that have meant it was brought in. For example, failure to penalise grappling and shirt pulling at corners. 2018 world cup saw that that can almost be eradicated. It is also clear that the PGMOL have made a unilateral decision not to make use of pitchside monitors, a move that has been heavily criticized by Wenger who is on the IFAB.

Not withstanding the arguments about offside, it is the complete lack of consistency in other areas. For example, Deeney won a penalty when he was charged down by Luiz yet an equally forceful challenge in the back of Mendy on Friday night was allowed to stand and Wolves scored. Yesterday, Newcastle were denied a penalty when Carroll was pushed over yet it appeared Mason was even interested in having it reviewed!!

Overall, I don't think VAR is the problem, it is the referees that have taken over the control of it that are the issue and I don't think anyone, the FA or the Premier League, have the power to tell them what to do!!!

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's really disappointing our offside goals don't count anymore but the upside is neither do the opposition's.

I can't see them tweaking to allow upper limbs to be offside as that surely would require even more intense study of VAR pictures and longer delays, and actually wouldn't reduce the number of marginal calls people are complaining about.

I can't see them adopting a margin of error latitude as that would just lead to arguments about how big or how small the latitude should be. That would just create another category of marginal calls people would moan about.

Players and eventually fans will adapt as they have always done for 150 years, VAR at the moment just appears to be lightning rod for other problems in the game such as the lack of clarity in rules on physical contact etc

I've this argument about a margin leading to arguments further down the line, but I cannot agree. All 3 goals disallowed by VAR for offside yesterday, that I doubt anyone in football would argue they weren't onside in the 'spirit' of the game would have needed 10secs max each to decide they were outside the margin of error, therefore a VAR review was not necessary. All 3 goals would have stood and I don't think anyone could argue against that and the experience for fans and players maintained.

Your point about when an offside hits that margin, then you're already talking about it being 'significant' because you are already assessing it as being offside to a margin of error. If we are then arguing that the margin is 100mm, and someone is 101mm offside, then despite that being debatable whether an offside at 99mm is play on but a 101mm is reviewed, the player is still 100mm offside in order for the VAR to be needed. There is less to argue about.

 

[London Irish]

I've this argument about a margin leading to arguments further down the line, but I cannot agree. All 3 goals disallowed by VAR for offside yesterday, that I doubt anyone in football would argue they weren't onside in the 'spirit' of the game would have needed 10secs max each to decide they were outside the margin of error, therefore a VAR review was not necessary. All 3 goals would have stood and I don't think anyone could argue against that and the experience for fans and players maintained.

Your point about when an offside hits that margin, then you're already talking about it being 'significant' because you are already assessing it as being offside to a margin of error. If we are then arguing that the margin is 100mm, and someone is 101mm offside, then despite that being debatable whether an offside at 99mm is play on but a 101mm is reviewed, the player is still 100mm offside in order for the VAR to be needed. There is less to argue about.

I think this it really tricky territory, what is the spirit of the game? Offside should be a factual thing not something associated with artistic license. The current very factual, very tech rule can be perceived to be harsh with zero margin for error, but I genuinely don't see leeway or margins of error being introduced as lessening post match disputes, in fact I think it will create more - that's the bind we are in. VAR/tech is not a magic bullet to solve all disputes but it seems these are the expectations it is being burdened with

 

[Recidivist]

Have to say that whilst I think VAR is here to stay, it does require drastic improvement/implementation!!!

Firstly, I don't agree with the daylight rule but maybe what they could look at is to change the rule so that you are not offside if part of your body is onside! Can't see it happening though.

It's a tricky one because what we want is the offside rule changed for those matches that are covered by VAR but to stay the same for the rest of football.

My view is that the referees in this country actually don't want it and see it as a slur on their reputation yet is is their failure to deal with situation that have meant it was brought in. For example, failure to penalise grappling and shirt pulling at corners. 2018 world cup saw that that can almost be eradicated. It is also clear that the PGMOL have made a unilateral decision not to make use of pitchside monitors, a move that has been heavily criticized by Wenger who is on the IFAB.

Not withstanding the arguments about offside, it is the complete lack of consistency in other areas. For example, Deeney won a penalty when he was charged down by Luiz yet an equally forceful challenge in the back of Mendy on Friday night was allowed to stand and Wolves scored. Yesterday, Newcastle were denied a penalty when Carroll was pushed over yet it appeared Mason was even interested in having it reviewed!!

Overall, I don't think VAR is the problem, it is the referees that have taken over the control of it that are the issue and I don't think anyone, the FA or the Premier League, have the power to tell them what to do!!!

I'm sure that either the FA or Premier League could sort out the issue if they want to but, in reality, I think we're going to need some changes in the laws, particularly offside, to make VAR work better.

Personally, I'd favour changing offside so that only the attacker's feet have to be ahead rather than any part of the body that you can legally score with.

The reality is that the vast majority of goals are scored with the feet and in a situation where an attacker is trying to spin away further from the goal he just has to be faster on his feet to make it count, if you get my meaning?!

Would mean you wouldn't have to draw all these ridiculous lines all over players' anatomy, just a simple line across the field as TV does, which would make decision making much quicker and simpler.

I'd also look again at the offside law in relation to the build up. Seems ridiculous to me that a goal can be chalked off because of a minor transgression though the ball has been played by several players since.

Not sure how you solve the latter issue.

Would also introduce a strict and short time limit as suggested by other posts.




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[Bold Seagull]

I think this it really tricky territory, what is the spirit of the game? Offside should be a factual thing not something associated with artistic license. The current very factual, very tech rule can be perceived to be harsh with zero margin for error, but I genuinely don't see leeway or margins of error being introduced as lessening post match disputes, in fact I think it will create more - that's the bind we are in. VAR/tech is not a magic bullet to solve all disputes but it seems these are the expectations it is being burdened with

It's not what is in the spirit of the game, it is what the limitations of technology is. 1. at what frame do you freeze the action? 2. once frozen where do you measure the lines from? 3. How are the lines projected etc. in 3D on a 2D image. All these factors lead to a tolerance or artistic license as you put it. The rule can be factual, but how you measure it is not always that easy. One person's shoulder is another person's top of arm.

VAR's primary purpose HAS to be to reduce controversy. It is pointless if it creates more. The expectation placed on VAR is burdened by what the authorities believe it is capable of doing - i.e. precision beyond it's capabilities.

We fans just want the shocking decisions overturned. No one is interested in a decision that might have been wrong by 5mm. No one.

 

[London Irish]

Personally i want VAR binned but:

View attachment 118670

That's a great stat! Take out Dan Burn from the stats and our lead would be as freakish as his great touch for a big lad

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

There were some REALLY shit decisions and non-decisions by linos yesterday. There were multiple instances where they had to be instructed which way to give a decision by the ref. Which sort of makes them redundant really. If they can't do their one job, then maybe VAR should be extended to do it for/instead of them.

 

[London Irish]

It's not what is in the spirit of the game, it is what the limitations of technology is. 1. at what frame do you freeze the action? 2. once frozen where do you measure the lines from? 3. How are the lines projected etc. in 3D on a 2D image. All these factors lead to a tolerance or artistic license as you put it. The rule can be factual, but how you measure it is not always that easy. One person's shoulder is another person's top of arm.

VAR's primary purpose HAS to be to reduce controversy. It is pointless if it creates more. The expectation placed on VAR is burdened by what the authorities believe it is capable of doing - i.e. precision beyond it's capabilities.

We fans just want the shocking decisions overturned. No one is interested in a decision that might have been wrong by 5mm. No one.

I get the argument that the tech might not be perfect but it's still better than Mike Dean's gammy eyesight. Cricket fans tend to accept the greater invention of DRS with ball tracking which is much more speculative/model reliant than the lines being drawn to the pitch in football.

I disagree that VAR was introduced to reduce controversy, that's impossible as new controversies can always be found, often nothing to do with the tech but in the ambiguities in current rules. I agree it was introduced to take out the real bizarrely bad calls and it has done that. The controversies have always been over marginal calls and these will persist to the end of doom, VAR or no VAR

 

[Mayonaise]

Bin it!

Works great for sports like tennis and cricket and is a good part of the game now. A bit too slow for rugby and utterly dreadful for football.

Hate it even when we have benefited.

 

[getreal1]

A bridge too VAR?

Thank you VARy much FIFA.

SomeVAR over the ****ing rainbow.

VAR VAR black sheep...

It's here to stay... we will get one chalked off to our benefit soon, just wait and see.

Here to stay with modification desperately needed.

 

[Seasider78]

It’s just so dull it has dominated the headlines on a weekly basis how much more of this nonsense do we have to sit through before someone admits they dropped a bollock and bins it off

 

[tronnogull]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already in the thread but I haven't come across it and it certainly hasn't been emphasised.

Between the time the free kick was taken, with Burn's possible minuscule offside, and the actual goal there was nearly 15 seconds of play. And arguably two separate passages of play.

How far back can VAR go to find an infringement to disallow a goal Doesn't it have to be in the same passage of play ?