[Football] Right then. After that demonstration... VAR? Yes or No?

[Bozza]

One that springs to mind is Man City on the opening day. Was saved and cleared by West Ham (declan rice?) and retaken and scored.

Ah, fair enough. I was away for the first week so didn't follow much other than our own game.

 

[symyjym]

I've been mulling over different scenarios that may result from penalties now we have the "benefit" of VAR being able to forensically examine every movement retrospectively.

I'm not aware of any other VAR interventions in penalties so far this season - is anyone aware of any to date? As players routinely encroach from penalties, presumably this sequence: kick taken - goalie saves - defender clears would see the kick retaken if the defender was inside the box when the kick was taken.

I think there has been one encroachment incident with a penalty this season but I cannot remember who. I am guessing that every penalty taken is now VAR'rd to spot encroachment and even spotting the keeper off their line?

I can see now that if we hadn't encroached we would have won the free kick.

 

[drew]

I've been mulling over different scenarios that may result from penalties now we have the "benefit" of VAR being able to forensically examine every movement retrospectively.

I'm not aware of any other VAR interventions in penalties so far this season - is anyone aware of any to date? As players routinely encroach from penalties, presumably this sequence: kick taken - goalie saves - defender clears would see the kick retaken if the defender was inside the box when the kick was taken.

You'd have to look at instances where someone has scored from the rebound/save. VAR is not checking penalties for encroachment, that is the job of the onfield officials. The only reason VAR got involved was that a goal was scored so it checks for any infringements.

 

[Bodian]

See earlier post. VAR only intervenes if there is a 'direct impact' because of the encroachment. In this case there was, as Maddison had encroached and scored. VAR therefore intervened and said 'Maddison encroached and had a direct impact [scored] - so should normally be a free-kick to Brighton. However, because at the same time an Albion player encroached - therefore law says penalty must be retaken'. (that is, if we hadn't encroached as well, we would have had a free kick).

If Maddison had missed his header, VAR would have not intervened - even though players encroached. It's up to the onfield refs to spot encroachment.

If keeper moves - again, it's for the onfield refs, VAR won't intervene.

 

[Pondicherry]

But isn't the point that Var has no authority to advise of encroachment of our players in this instance? Unless The Complete And Utter Shyster spotted it (which he didn't) then var can only advise whether Maddison encroached as he had a direct impact and having done that it should have been a free kick to us.

So technically you are correct but under var rules the free kick should have been ours.

Yes this is exactly the point I was making.

 

[symyjym]

You'd have to look at instances where someone has scored from the rebound/save. VAR is not checking penalties for encroachment, that is the job of the onfield officials. The only reason VAR got involved was that a goal was scored so it checks for any infringements.

If this is the case then yesterday VAR went beyond it's remit and it should have only been looking at Maddisons encroachment. To be consistent VAR should be used on every penalty.

 

[Pondicherry]

You'd have to look at instances where someone has scored from the rebound/save. VAR is not checking penalties for encroachment, that is the job of the onfield officials. The only reason VAR got involved was that a goal was scored so it checks for any infringements.

This is not correct according to the Premier League. Following is direct quote from the Premier League. See point 4.

The VAR can intervene in one of the following instances:

- A clear and obvious error by the on-field match officials relating to goalkeeper movement
- A double touch by the penalty-taker
- Feigning at the point of the kick by the taker
- Encroachment by players that has a direct impact on the outcome of the kick

 

[Guinness Boy]

How on earth could Maddison be in an offside position from a penalty? For that to happen he would have to be ahead of the penalty taker before he strikes the ball. I'm pretty certain that Dean would have noticed that!!!!

 

[BensGrandad]

How on earth could Maddison be in an offside position from a penalty? For that to happen he would have to be ahead of the penalty taker before he strikes the ball. I'm pretty certain that Dean would have noticed that!!!!

Easy if Maddison or another Leicester player had been on the 18 yd line and every Brighton player 2 inches nearer the centre circle just off the line that player would have been offside, although behind the kicker. So if he kicked it the correct decision would be offside which VAR would have picked up.

 

[CliveWalkerWingWizard]

See earlier post. VAR only intervenes if there is a 'direct impact' because of the encroachment. In this case there was, as Maddison had encroached and scored. VAR therefore intervened and said 'Maddison encroached and had a direct impact [scored] - so should normally be a free-kick to Brighton. However, because at the same time an Albion player encroached - therefore law says penalty must be retaken'. (that is, if we hadn't encroached as well, we would have had a free kick).

If Maddison had missed his header, VAR would have not intervened - even though players encroached. It's up to the onfield refs to spot encroachment.

If keeper moves - again, it's for the onfield refs, VAR won't intervene.

This is how I saw it, so the decision was correct but by Maddison encroaching and scoring he effectively got a retake of the pen. Although our players need to be trained to not encroach.

 

[BensGrandad]

That's several times you name check Burn for encroachment, despite a) seemingly being aware other brighton players were encroaching, b) Bissouma being a yard further forward than Burn (whose feet were still on the line of the box). What do you have against him? It's like you're trying to pin the blame for the goal on him.

You are correct as I was going by my memory of watching it live but when watching the highlights on MOTD it shows trhat Bissoumma ran into the box as Vardy ran up to take the kick, so yes Bissouma was the foremost forward player.

 

[Pondicherry]

Having seen the various responses I would now like to modify my thoughts and suggest that Mr Dean was unfortunately correct.

Dean himself did not signal for encroachment, he left that for VAR. So whilst he could have ordered the kick retaken due to both sides encroaching, he didn't.

Once it goes to VAR, VAR can only look at encroachment by someone who impacts play which is Maddison only.

The laws and FA rules then state its a retake if the penalty was scored and an indirect free kick (to the defending team if missed). I had assumed Vardy's penalty was missed, but as someone else pointed out, the penalty is only completed when the ball stops moving (including being held by the goalkeeper) or goes out of play or if the referee stops play. None of these happened before Maddison headed in the rebound so the penalty was 'scored'. The re-take effectively penalised Leicester by making them re-take a penalty they had already scored. There is a flaw in the law here in my opinion as Maddison gained an advantage by encroaching which lead to a saved penalty being re-taken. We were unlucky I think.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Easy if Maddison or another Leicester player had been on the 18 yd line and every Brighton player 2 inches nearer the centre circle just off the line that player would have been offside, although behind the kicker. So if he kicked it the correct decision would be offside which VAR would have picked up.

But they will all be behind the ball at the moment the ball is struck?

 

[Bodian]

Easy if Maddison or another Leicester player had been on the 18 yd line and every Brighton player 2 inches nearer the centre circle just off the line that player would have been offside, although behind the kicker. So if he kicked it the correct decision would be offside which VAR would have picked up.

I know the offside law changes and can be complicated - but I cannot really believe that after all your years of watching football you think this would be offside?!?

 

[BensGrandad]

I think it is but it is such an unlikely situation that it is not worth considering at length.

 

[drew]

I think it is but it is such an unlikely situation that it is not worth considering at length.

I think it is worth considering at length because you might mistakenly be explaining your idea to youngsters who then go away believing you!!!

Just for clarity, you are aware that to be in an offside position, you have to be ahead of the ball when it is kicked?

 

[drew]

This is how I saw it, so the decision was correct but by Maddison encroaching and scoring he effectively got a retake of the pen. Although our players need to be trained to not encroach.

Not sure I agree with your summation there. The retake was only because Bissouma and Burn were encroaching. Had they stayed outside then it would have been a free kick to us. We shot ourselves in the foot.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think it is but it is such an unlikely situation that it is not worth considering at length.

Unlikely, I'll give you. But nowhere near as unlikely as you saying 'I got it wrong'

 

[darkwolf666]

Not sure I agree with your summation there. The retake was only because Bissouma and Burn were encroaching. Had they stayed outside then it would have been a free kick to us. We shot ourselves in the foot.

We shot ourselves in the foot... behave.

I don’t have the analysis to prove it, but I am a betting man, and I bet there is encroachment at EVERY single penalty taken in the Premier League, no I will go further than that, the whole of the football league and probably non league too.

And while we’re at it, the keepers all move forward off their lines too...

 

[drew]

We shot ourselves in the foot... behave.

I don’t have the analysis to prove it, but I am a betting man, and I bet there is encroachment at EVERY single penalty taken in the Premier League, no I will go further than that, the whole of the football league and probably non league too.

And while we’re at it, the keepers all move forward off their lines too...

True, but only the Premier League is subject to VAR!