Religion

[Simster]

I have found that the most religious people I ever met turned to God (and their chosen organised religion) in times of need. And I include myself in that. Surely this says more about the human being's desire for some inner sanctum in times of need than it does about the truth of their religion?

I do believe there might well be a higher being, but find it hard to stomach any organised religion. And the reason I believe a "God" might exist is that I believe in ghosts. And plenty of people unaffected by tragedy or desperation have reported hauntings. And I can't believe you can close your mind to one and not the other.

 

[Simster]

Because the whole idea of his life was to be killed and punished for sins. That is why the Resurrection is such an essential part of the Christian faith.
Jesus beat death and so makes it possible for me to live.

(please forgive me for preaching. I will only do it if asked)

This is what is trotted out by Christians the world over, but I still don't get it. How does some bloke expressing his views over 2,000 years ago make it possible for me to live. It was a brutal world in those days, but humanity is in far more danger of wiping itself out in these modern times. If he really did do that, then I think he was at least 2,000 years too early.

 

[Yorkie]

This is what is trotted out by Christians the world over, but I still don't get it. How does some bloke expressing his views over 2,000 years ago make it possible for me to live. It was a brutal world in those days, but humanity is in far more danger of wiping itself out in these modern times. If he really did do that, then I think he was at least 2,000 years too early.

Mankind will not wipe itself out. I have read the end of the Book.

There is a further part to this, Jesus will return before the end of the world.
It won't be in some obscure town in Israel but the whole world will know.
It's all written down in Daniel and Revelations.

 

[bhaexpress]

I think what's being confused here is the notion of a higher being and some sort of diety who will look after us if we do as he/her/it bids.

Believe what you want, this is, after all, a truly free country. What screws the situation is when religions and their particular agenda's dictate what is right or wrong. Sometimes those agendas require acts which are outside of what the average person considers common decency and worse still, illegal.

The original poll was for or against the banning of religion and not against belief. It's clear that, as possibly the world's most secular state the majority don't believe in any higher authority. Now whether that's a good or a bad thing is a moot point.

However, even a lot of the believers don't accept the need to be part of any particular religion. Now that is no bad thing. After all it's religion that causes problems, not belief. IMHO there's a difference.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

A lot of the stuff on here makes a lot of sense to me. The whole turning to god area is something I can't completely discount, as an agnostic.

I wonder how the world's religions interpret the many gods of greek, norse and roman civilizations. Why now is it classed as mythology? How can they be sure that their own god is no myth?





It was Christianity that first painted the devil on the world's wall. It was Christianity that first brought sin into the wold. Belief in the cure which it offered has now been shaken to it's deepest roots; but belief in the sadness which it taught and propagated continues to exist".--Nietzche

 

[Barnet Seagull]

duplicate.

 

[Meade's Ball]

I built a little empire out of some crazy garbage
Called the blood of the exploited working class
But they've overcome their shyness
Now they're calling me Your Highness
And a world screams, "Kiss me, Son of God"

 

[Meade's Ball]

Mankind will not wipe itself out. I have read the end of the Book.

There is a further part to this, Jesus will return before the end of the world.
It won't be in some obscure town in Israel but the whole world will know.
It's all written down in Daniel and Revelations.

Does that not scare the hell out of you?

 

[Yorkie]

However, even a lot of the believers don't accept the need to be part of any particular religion. Now that is no bad thing. After all it's religion that causes problems, not belief. IMHO there's a difference.

Exactly my point.

 

[Faldo]

Technically, "bible" means library (66 books if memory serves - although I can't remember the old / new testament splt).

One thing always got me with the bible. Especially the new testament. Most of it based around 4 peoples accounts of Jesus life (well - his 20's / 30's) - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

These guys accounts were made a good 1990 - 2000 years ago (i think John wrote his from a Roman cell?). Now, they have been translated, and re-written countless times over. So to my mind, even if you believe that todays bible actually came from their accounts, you have to wonder about a "chinese whispers" element.

Conversely, these 4 guys split up, went there seperate ways and never met again and yet they all produced strikingly similar accounts of Christs life.

Arguments for and against.

 

[Yorkie]

Does that not scare the hell out of you?

Hell doesn't worry me at all because that is what I have been saved from.

If Jesus returned today I would be overjoyed to see a friend.
I am not saying it will be. It may not be for centuries but I do try and live each day as if it was my last.

 

[bhaexpress]

Technically, "bible" means library (66 books if memory serves - although I can't remember the old / new testament splt).

One thing always got me with the bible. Especially the new testament. Most of it based around 4 peoples accounts of Jesus life (well - his 20's / 30's) - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

These guys accounts were made a good 1990 - 2000 years ago (i think John wrote his from a Roman cell?). Now, they have been translated, and re-written countless times over. So to my mind, even if you believe that todays bible actually came from their accounts, you have to wonder about a "chinese whispers" element.

Conversely, these 4 guys split up, went there seperate ways and never met again and yet they all produced strikingly similar accounts of Christs life.

Arguments for and against.

Fair comment and your views reflect my thoughts about the bible. Having seen preachers in the American Bible belt quoting (usually out of context) texts from the Bible and thus distorting the meaning to suit their own agendas is absurd. It's a habit of the fundermentalist Christians. However, Fundermentalist Moslems do the same with the Koran.

Once again, it's religion and not faith thet is the problem here.

 

[Yorkie]

Technically, "bible" means library (66 books if memory serves - although I can't remember the old / new testament splt).

One thing always got me with the bible. Especially the new testament. Most of it based around 4 peoples accounts of Jesus life (well - his 20's / 30's) - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

These guys accounts were made a good 1990 - 2000 years ago (i think John wrote his from a Roman cell?). Now, they have been translated, and re-written countless times over. So to my mind, even if you believe that todays bible actually came from their accounts, you have to wonder about a "chinese whispers" element.

Conversely, these 4 guys split up, went there seperate ways and never met again and yet they all produced strikingly similar accounts of Christs life.

Arguments for and against.

39/27 OT/NT

The New Testament comes from their accounts which are similar but do have differences which is not surprising when you consider what we think after all watching the same match.
They did meet again quite frequently from the next book which is 'Acts of the Apostles'

Interesting- the chinese whispers theory because there are two surviving languages from 2000 years ago and that is Hebrew and Greek (even Latin is only used in education and not in general use)
The Old Testament was written in Hebrew (Dead Sea scrolls found in 1948 were from 2000 years ago and when translated were found to be Isaiah and word for word, identical) and the New Testament written in Greek.

 

[Shizuoka Dolphin]

Reasons why Japan is so much fun, number 1: A complete lack of Christian morality.

 

[Simster]

Latin is still the official language of the Vatican City apparently. Does anyone know whether the people who live there actually speak it?

 

[Dandyman]

39/27 OT/NT

The New Testament comes from their accounts which are similar but do have differences which is not surprising when you consider what we think after all watching the same match.
They did meet again quite frequently from the next book which is 'Acts of the Apostles'

Interesting- the chinese whispers theory because there are two surviving languages from 2000 years ago and that is Hebrew and Greek (even Latin is only used in education and not in general use)
The Old Testament was written in Hebrew (Dead Sea scrolls found in 1948 were from 2000 years ago and when translated were found to be Isaiah and word for word, identical) and the New Testament written in Greek.

The Gospels postdate the events they describe by 40 to 80 years. They were all compiled after the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 and appear to be written for a non-Jewish (ie: Roman) audience.

The four Gospels do not agree. In the first three Gospels all the events relating to the passion of Christ happen on the feast of Passover, a very unlikely situation which asks us to believe that contrary to all known Jewish law a capital case would be heard on a feast day. John says that the events happened the day before and that there was no trial only an interrogation of Jesus by a high priest, Annas, and no sentance pronounced. Incidently proclaiming yourself the messiah would not be seen as blasphemy in Jewish law, although sedition would have been a capital crime in a Roman court.

After the Jewish rebellion of AD 66 - 74 antipathy towards the Jews was widespread throughout the Roman Empire. To preach that the messiah was killed by Romans, rather than Jews, would make new converts politically suspect. Thus the New Testament paints Pilate as subservient to the high priest, rather than his boss which is the historical case, and ignores the many executions without trial and unlawful massacres we know him to be guilty of and for which he was later dismissed from office and banished by Tiberius for. We have also had 2000 years in which the jewishness of Jesus and the disciples has ben down played or ignored.

I realise none of this probably makes any difference to those who wish to believe in fairy stories, but I hope it means others will see that spin doctors have been around a lot longer than Alistair Campbell.

 

[Sorrel]

The Gospels postdate the events they describe by 40 to 80 years. They were all compiled after the fall of Jerusalem in AD70 and appear to be written for a non-Jewish (ie: Roman) audience.

AFAIK the earliest post-Jesus books in the Bible are the letters of Paul. Paul talked to those who were Jesus' disciples, and his letters pre-date the Gospels by around 40 years or more.

One of the interesting things about Paul's letters is that he is not interested at all in Jesus' life, and story. What bothers him is the fact that Jesus was God.

Paul was also responsible for much of the sexual morality of Christians (c.f. what someone said about the Japanese). In my opinion it's a pity his letters have survived, and the church is much better off without him.

 

[US Seagull]

I was talking about this thread.

As was I. Perhaps you don't see how patronising it is?

 

[US Seagull]

But you know, if 100 million people worldwide reckoned that dancing with magic pixies was important enough to them to make a stand about it, I would be forced to wonder whether perhaps there was something in it I simply couldn't yet see.

No that argument doesn't work. There was a time when most people believed the earth was flat. Nethertheless, it was still round. The truth isn't in anyway influenced by how many people believe it. This is what is so totally futile about praying. Pray all you want, it won't make the damnest bit of difference.

 

[US Seagull]

Being a messenger is a vast difference from saying the way the truth and the life

That very claim excludes others. By making that statement Jesus knew he was going to be arrested and killed.

Okay, try this then:

US Seagull said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No-one come to the Father except through me."

Are you ready to start worshipping me? My claim is at least a valid as any claim in the bible.

Oh dear, I'm going straight to hell for that aren't I
Oh well, that's were all the fun people will be hanging out anyway. There is no greater hell than another persons view of heaven.