Religion takes us to war.....yet again

[Nibble]

You are right you seem to be directing it at Muslims, am I correct?

No, I'm directing it at religious warmongers in general.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The UN can't be used as a police force as long as they remain toothless (which they are, utterly gutless organisation) and member nations retain vetos.

The UN and Nato isnt an option, otherwise it would already be delivering whatever you want to be delivered and it probably doesnt, bit like saying let my local church council have a go ( Vicar of Dibley style ).

They seem to be irrelevant and at critical times are largely ignored by a dominant nation or group of nations, so you are back to which dominant nation might offer some world values that align with ourselves, the USA seems a better option than most.

I'm not suggesting the UN or Nato, I'm merely saying that if you're going to make a statement that the US is a better option than those you listed, you make as well throw more suitable examples in.

I just don't think you can advocate what is in effect an undemocratic, autocratic, dissolution of power to a single nation state to police the world. What are these values the US holds that the rest of the world can align themselves with? Drone programmes? Captivity without trial? Approved systematic torture? Indiscriminate military contracts to various regimes? Christian fundamentalism? Great burgers?

 

[Czechmate]

Who else would you like to police the world ??

China, Russia, Pakistan, the EU, Africa who ?? I agree that the USA isnt perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but as a barometer of world values its one of the better ones.

Is it ? Just as much as the others they will all have their own agenda's . I would prefer the EU as a group so not one individual country benefits and you have different views . It is plain to see the US only gets involved when it's own interest's are at stake , for example they see Africa as the second continent for growth rate now plus all their resources , so what do they do ? plan to spend $33 billion dollars on security and business softeners , there has been vast amounts of trouble in different parts of Africa for many years and not until now have they decided to do anything about it .

This is a good impartial read :

http://nationalsecurityzone.org/site/african-conflicts-should-the-u-s-get-involved/

 

[Toko]

Some wars, in particular WW1 & WW2 may have been manufactured to change the face of society, bring about a togetherness and temporarily fix the economy. These could also be reasons away from religion to create WW3? Lets not forget population control.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

About the best that can be said for modern wars is that they're getting smaller and more localised. Which obviously doesn't make it right, but at least doesn't overtly threaten the entire planet and everyone who lives on it. IMHO, like.

 

[Eeyore]

Obama sanctioned air strikes against Iraq to counter the slaughter of Christians refusing to convert or pay the tax.

While in the west we tend to counter argue against religion being the cause of war saying the age old line "Religion is just being used as an excuse for war". We use that argument in the west because, largely, our faith isn't as fervent as some in the middle East. They really do think they are doing the work of their one true God.

The historic battle of Religion Vs Consumerism will destroy this planet.

In fairness though Nibble, a lot of the warring factions are delineated through historical tribal affiliation. A number of countries in conflict were put together by Victorian cartographers with protractors and pink crayons, the ramifications still being felt today.

 

[Eeyore]

Who else would you like to police the world ??

China, Russia, Pakistan, the EU, Africa who ?? I agree that the USA isnt perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but as a barometer of world values its one of the better ones.

Sadly the New American Century project put paid the notion that the U.S government was the arbiter of values and standards.

 

[lola]

They all are s*** why the f*** they sell guns for those country´s like ( irak, pakistan, israel ...... ) If they sell they should sell enough then and good quality too! This cat and mouse play we all have seen all ready like 70-years or so!

 

[Diego Napier]

I only wanted to comment on your clear statement about religion,.... the rest of your comment was fluff round the edges to be perfectly honest.

You've totally missed the point [MENTION=14905]symyjym[/MENTION] was making and consequently ended up with a comment with fluff around the edges to be perfectly honest.

Religion is totally subsumed into the basic tribal urge to which he referred, an urge that caused groups or tribes of our earliest ancestors to show aggression to strangers long before superstition and religion played a part in early human life. You can call it religion if you like but at it's heart it is the fear of something different to an individual's or collectives' normal frame of reference; a Palace supporter rather than Brighton, "foreigners" rather than British people, white rather than black, fascist rather than centrist, cross-dresser rather than straight, the different tribe in Ukraine living next to us etc. etc. All of these anomalies can cause people in extreme circumstances (anger, alcohol, fear, poor intellect etc.) to react violently. In the right (or wrong!) circumstances when a group of people feel threatened, Christian rather than Muslim is certainly no different.

 

[carlzeiss]

Hopefully some of our UK tourist Jihadists will get hit in the air strikes .

Bring it on .

 

[BigGully]

Sadly the New American Century project put paid the notion that the U.S government was the arbiter of values and standards.

Compared to who ?

It is a cheap shot, although currently popular to be anti USA, its been a long standing superpower and mistakes have been made and with such an active and overwhelming contributory power it isn't surprising that you can dredge up some of its actions and depending which 'side' you fall use it as a stick to beat them with.

Personally I do not think it is the Wests position to try and open worldwide Mcdonalds whilst foisting our own western virtues to other cultures, however sometimes those that are quick to take a swipe at the US then demand actions to admonish those self same cultures that inflict some quite astonishing cruelty to their own people, mostly women.

So although not perfect the question remains, who else other than the USA.

 

[knocky1]

Well I have given you 4 pages and it is time I stepped in. Look at the share prices for Gulf Keystone and Genel. Look at the importance of Arbil as a hub for oil producers. How many years has the killing been allowed to continue in the north of Syria and Iraq? Don't think this is about religion suddenly. ISIS, or IS, are approaching US oil interests. Time for them to be killed.

The Kurds have been looked after by the Americans and they deserve it after Saddam but it has been purely for the huge oil reserves underneath them.

 

[BigGully]

Well I have given you 4 pages and it is time I stepped in. Look at the share prices for Gulf Keystone and Genel. Look at the importance of Arbil as a hub for oil producers. How many years has the killing been allowed to continue in the north of Syria and Iraq? Don't think this is about religion suddenly. ISIS, or IS, are approaching US oil interests. Time for them to be killed.

The Kurds have been looked after by the Americans and they deserve it after Saddam but it has been purely for the huge oil reserves underneath them.

I find it quite reasonable that any nation would try and secure access and protection for its own oil interests, why on earth wouldnt they, if you think who they might be protecting them from it seems a reasonable desire.

What would you expect them to do, most things that happen in the world good or bad are likely to have the USA's fingerprints on it at some level, you can play it how you want, but for me I am happy its the US that is the worlds current superpower and not any other likely contender.

 

[knocky1]

I find it quite reasonable that any nation would try and secure access and protection for its own oil interests, why on earth wouldnt they, if you think who they might be protecting them from it seems a reasonable desire.

What would you expect them to do, most things that happen in the world good or bad are likely to have the USA's fingerprints on it at some level, you can play it how you want, but for me I am happy its the US that is the worlds current superpower and not any other likely contender.

I am glad we are at least in agreement that religion has not taken us to war.....yet again.

 

[Eeyore]

Compared to who ?

It is a cheap shot, although currently popular to be anti USA, its been a long standing superpower and mistakes have been made and with such an active and overwhelming contributory power it isn't surprising that you can dredge up some of its actions and depending which 'side' you fall use it as a stick to beat them with.

Personally I do not think it is the Wests position to try and open worldwide Mcdonalds whilst foisting our own western virtues to other cultures, however sometimes those that are quick to take a swipe at the US then demand actions to admonish those self same cultures that inflict some quite astonishing cruelty to their own people, mostly women.

So although not perfect the question remains, who else other than the USA.

I'm not anti-USA, by that I mean the nation of people. So often an entire nation is tarnished of character by the actions of an administration, and in the case of the Jews, whilst being a dispersed race of many nationalities, we see much of this at present.

My point would be to challenge your initial question. For the U.S role of Policeman involves more than the arresting of wrong-doers, as the New American Century Project showed. It involves extending an international order friendly 'to our security, our prosperity, and our principles'. In other words, a world shaped in that of the USA's boundaries.

There are multiple issues here. Pre-eminence is not achieved without cost, and the U.S will only pay the price that produces the product. As China advances all over Africa, through its hostile economics, the U.S is less inclined to police its sectarian conflicts as there is no resulting benefit. So the Policeman undermines his principles in pursuit of its prosperity, and motives start to unravel.

It could be argued that a Policeman should not do deals with criminals, yet, last I looked, every country along the worlds oil distribution avenues has a U.S military base, despot regime or not. The U.S values, 'our principles', are somewhat undermined by their relationships of convenience with states of strategic interest. So whilst undermining his principles in pursuit of its prosperity, this Policeman makes further mockery of them in pursuit of his security.

So what is my conclusion. It's quite simple. The world does not need a Policeman, as such a role will always lend itself to abuse, and be self appointed anyway. It is the nature of humans to protect their own. I believe the world would be no worse for an insular USA, but am happy to be challenged.

The reason why I am so critical of the U.S.A government is not in arbitrary isolation. I project it on to all governments. The reason why we have conflicts, divisions, hunger and disease will often has little to do with religion (although not innocent) and more to do with the self interested ideology of a few, and the indoctrination of many. It's not just governments though, it's nearly all of us. Our natural instinct is to protect our own, and advance our own interests, however seemingly noble our intentions.

 

[Higham Seagull Army]

US just protecting it's interests after Iraq war, that was after all it's main purpose .

US military can at least let the families of there dead know, it wasn't all in vain , if they can keep the Baddies from there oil assets .

 

[knocky1]

What I'd like to understand is why it seems to always be the USA or British who make the running in these issues. India, Germany, Italy, Russia, Japan, Malaysia, France, Brazil, Argentina, Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Turkey, Bahrain, Saudi, South Africa, to name but a few, all have air forces, all capable of carrying out the same sort of "defence" missions, why don't they ever step up to the mark?

The Sunni Saudi Arabia Kingdom, Bahraini Sunni minority ruling royal family and majority Sunni Turkey will obviously not be interested for starters.

 

[Nitram]

No, I'm directing it at religious warmongers in general.

Oh behave it's quite clear what you meant at least be honest about it.

 

[The Truth]

Money causes war, god just gets the blame.

 

[BadFish]

It's more a tribal thing than a religious issue, but it rears it's ugly head in via it. Self preservation, land, power and greed seems to be ingrained in our DNA, so when it is not religion it’s something else.

Chimpanzees fight and kill other chimps from other clans if they cross into each others territories so it’s a primeval trait we share.

We have come a long way....just a shame we can't evolve out of this.

Although it does keep the numbers down I suppose