Are they/ will they, just offer statutory redundancy? If so the trial may not be a bad idea. If they offer x but that becomes y then it's a different ballgame.
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[Help] Redundancy / Redeployment advice required
- Thread starter Triggaaar
- Start date
I don’t doubt it.
As it happened most of my colleagues were only too happy to jump ship so it made their role easier in a way.
The company ended up having to keep some employees it didn’t want.
The whole thing took 18 months. (Blessing and a curse tbf - lots of stress, but i did have time to prepare and save)
The other thing is I’ve never seen redundancy pay greater than £19k, the statutory cap. Someone could work for 35 years on decent money, that’s all they’ll get.
The big payouts are for people who work for financial institutions, multinationals or other listed businesses, sometimes the public sector. Where they’re swimming in cash and can afford to pay big as part of a CBA. There might be rights through a strong union agreement.
Agree……..these type of restructures always (in my experience anyway and been through absolutely loads) have poorly-hidden predetermined outcomes and HR often only cosmetically oversee ‘due process’. On the plus side, for affected employees this often means that ‘due process’ isn’t followed, meaning the employee can work the situation to their advantage or at least get a better outcome (in the OPs OH case for example one of the jobs seemingly being ‘handed’ to someone without anyone else having the opportunity to go for it).
Bottom line though is it’s usually impossible to fight the organisation and you just need to make sure you get a satisfactory outcome for yourself - the organisation screwing up at various stages of the process often makes this easier.
Well worth keeping a record of all meetings and communications, and having someone attend any key meetings (ie with HR or anyone managing the restructure) with you as there will be process failures, contradictions and people often say stupid things (once in my case, when I was offered three new positions as my own was disappearing, none of which were suitable for various reasons, the MD told me ‘you’ll have to resign in that case’ - that alone was enough for me to negotiate an exit package as it gave me the a constructive dismissal angle).
Wonder if it’s worth recording that type of meeting on a phone?
I saw devious writing up on minutes, with a bias thinking of legal connotations.
METALMICKY
Well-known member
- Jan 30, 2004
- 6,940
At the risk of going off at a tangent and telling you something you know, do people know that employment tribunal outcomes are in the public domain? They can make interesting reading including our club and I also spotted Conte's fall out with Chelsea 
- Thread starter
- #27
NHS redundancy terms are good, so no, not just statutory. But they try to avoid paying it at all.
- Thread starter
- #28
That's the sort of bs the NHS would like its staff to believe. How did you use that comment to ensure you got a good settlement? ie, how was that comment later put to them as constructive dismissal (by a lawyer, just by you)?
- May 8, 2018
- 10,817
I was curious so had a quick scan, seems to be quite a few involving the club, a lot more than I was expecting!At the risk of going off at a tangent and telling you something you know, do people know that employment tribunal outcomes are in the public domain? They can make interesting reading including our club and I also spotted Conte's fall out with Chelsea
My experience with my former union...
People have given some great advice and I wish you and the missus all the best.
(Don't know about you but I find these sorts of turn ups for the books switch on my relentlessness and resourcefulness genes).
When I went through similar restructures in my old job (government but non-departmental), it was also a condition that anyone not getting a job in the new structure would be guaranteed an interview for any other jobs that were advertised within the
organisation for which they had the minimum qualifications/experience. We had the right to a 4 week trial (decision by either party) on any new 'different' job offered, or applied for, within the restructuring process. Also, we had the right to refuse being slotted into jobs on lower grades, but could accept them (once accepted that was your new job) with protected salary for 2 years, but would not get any pay increases in those 2 years. Some people took this option whilst they found new jobs, often in the same organisation.
organisation for which they had the minimum qualifications/experience. We had the right to a 4 week trial (decision by either party) on any new 'different' job offered, or applied for, within the restructuring process. Also, we had the right to refuse being slotted into jobs on lower grades, but could accept them (once accepted that was your new job) with protected salary for 2 years, but would not get any pay increases in those 2 years. Some people took this option whilst they found new jobs, often in the same organisation.
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Said to me in front of an HR Rep I asked to attend the meeting with me because the MD was continually putting his foot in it. We immediately had the ‘compromise solution’ discussion after that meeting with that as the trigger - the HR guy was horrified
Doonhamer7
Well-known member
- Jun 17, 2016
- 1,461
We had a big round of redundancy in 2014/15 - and part of our legacy business had enhanced redundancy - I was offering a 63yr old in my team £28k, she was on £32k salary so I was effectively retiring her a year later - she was happy, my director who I was technically replacing (his position had “disappeared”) was given £105k and was 62 - he couldn’t have been happier. One person got close to £200k. Company closed the enhanced redundancy very soon afterwards, all we now get is started before 2015 is enhanced but limited to 3months, post 2015 you get statutory only.
- Thread starter
- #34
From Gov website, the relevant bits in bold
Trial periods
You have the right to a 4-week trial period for any alternative employment you’re offered.
The 4-week period could be extended if you need training. Any extension must be agreed in writing before the trial period starts.
Tell your employer during the trial period if you decide the new job is not suitable. This will not affect your employment rights, including your right to statutory redundancy pay.
You’ll lose your right to claim statutory redundancy pay if you do not give notice within the 4-week trial period.
Redundancy: your rights
Being made redundant - rights, statutory payments you're entitled to, notice periods and consultation, finding a job.www.gov.uk
Section 27 of this ("How is suitable alternative employment defined?") includes the findings of the Employment Appeal Tribunal:
That case says that it's not unreasonable to refuse to drop a grade (in that case, from band 8a to a 7).
But one thing I'm not understanding (and included in the post I've quoted) is references to statutory redundancy payments. Statutory payments can be quite low, but a benefit of a lot of employers (and reason for joining them) is better redundancy terms.
So my question is, where the law says "including your right to statutory redundancy pay" does that include the better redundancy terms that a lot of companies offer? I'm guessing that it does, because otherwise the terms employers offer don't really mean anything.
Does that apply to the NHS which has (I think) a specific redundancy policy and doesn’t use SRP ?
To answer @Triggaaar question, if there’s a policy it’ll be explicit on if SRP can be applied in certain circumstances- if not the ‘policy‘ amount would apply
- Thread starter
- #36
Their policy is in the link I posted above:
NHS redundancy arrangements
It is important for NHS employers in England to be aware of the key issues involved in managing the redundancy process.
It looks like when redundancy is due, it's simply 1 month per year up to 24 months, and earnings < £80k. So anything that would apply to statutory redundancy rights would then apply to this I would think?
Is the bottom line here the ‘suitable alternative employment’ question ? If so the policy seems to have wriggle room on the part of the NHS as it states things need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. If Mrs T doesn’t want to accept the new job (she can came up with all sorts of reasons as well as the lower grade/pay I’m sure) then I suspect they’re going to fine it difficult to do anything otherbthan pay standard NHS redundancy. Unlikely SRP will be in the discussion - it’ll either be stand NHS redundancy or agreed redeployment ?Their policy is in the link I posted above:
NHS redundancy arrangements
It is important for NHS employers in England to be aware of the key issues involved in managing the redundancy process.www.nhsemployers.org
It looks like when redundancy is due, it's simply 1 month per year up to 24 months, and earnings < £80k. So anything that would apply to statutory redundancy rights would then apply to this I would think?
- Thread starter
- #38
Thanks. That's how I'm reading it.
They give a link to a case: https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKEAT/2011/0116_11_0112.html
From that, an employee refused an alternative role because it was in a hospital setting (she won), but also in it, she refused to go from band 8a to band 7 (different roles to the hospital one) on the grounds that they were a lower status/pay, and the Employment Tribunal basically agreed with that:
"The band 7 jobs effectively ceased to be relevant to the litigation because the ET concluded that neither of them constituted suitable alternative employment and that the Appellant was not unreasonable in refusing them, because of the loss of status. That conclusion has not been challenged by way of cross appeal."
So it seems pretty clear Mrs T could reject the demotion if she wants, without losing her redundancy rights.
What's frightening, is that this is not what her union rep said.
Also, from your earlier post:
"people often say stupid things (once in my case, when I was offered three new positions as my own was disappearing, none of which were suitable for various reasons, the MD told me ‘you’ll have to resign in that case’ - that alone was enough for me to negotiate an exit package as it gave me the a constructive dismissal angle)."
Mrs T was told by her boss (over the phone) that if she didn't take the trial for the lower role, she wouldn't get redundancy.
Now her boss is not the MD (that's Sir Stephen Powis), so it's not quite the same as your case, but she is being given incorrect information.
The ‘MD’ in my case was simply the corporate title within the organisation - there were hundreds. It was essentially nothing more than my interim line manager at the time so it probably very little different…….
Sounds like she started with a strong case that has now got even stronger.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,946
This is where it can get messy, when things are said in meetings or phone calls with no record. I would always follow up with an e-mail confirming what was said, agreed, proposed etc, so it was documented and not open to interpretation, and I was the employer
I would hope that your dealings with the NHS are fairly straightforward and you can come to a reasonable conclusion. I think that generally, the larger the organisation, the more likely it is to be done 'by the book' even if some people in the management chain don't understand fully, and hope that holds true