[News] Rant from RMT assistant general secretary during radio interview.

[seagullsovergrimsby]

I stand corrected.

Though I don't think a strike is the way to deal with this...

There has been a vote in favour of industrial action. In 9 out of 10 cases this gets the union and management to sit down and review. Another union , Unite has called off two further separate days of strikes over the disparity of bus drivers hourly rate between the 18 companies that run the bus network across the whole of London as the bus operators are now prepared to sit down and talk with the union.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Very funny interview. 2 issues:

1) The breath test failure - insufficient facts in that interview to draw any conclusions about the driver's conduct.
2) "Do you still beat your wife?" - how does somebody's mind work that - mid-conversation and being broadcast to hundreds of thousands of people - they decide this is right route to go down? Personally, I think "Do you still fvck your cat?" would have been a better option.

 

[Baldseagull]

You'd be quite right when you say not everyone can do it,can't speak for the train operating company's but on LUL there is a sizeable failure rate.
Mechanical reasoning is a very important skill set,on top of the ones you point out.drivers must be be able to literally strip a tube train down (often in the dark) and put the ******* back together again,exhaustive route knowledge,points,signals,gradients,cambers and such like.
From the day I joined(as a guard/emergency driver) to the position I hold now(driver/instructor) took me about 3 years of constant training,I've been doing it now for about 17 years and I ****ing love it.
Every day at work is a real pleasure for Me and I can't imagine doing anything else.

Just wondering how important route knowledge is when the fecking thing is on rails?

 

[Norman Baker suck my lozenge]

Just wondering how important route knowledge is when the fecking thing is on rails?

Take the wrong signal at Kings cross and instead of going to Morden over a thousand angry punters end up at Heathrow!

 

[Baldseagull]

Take the wrong signal at Kings cross and instead of going to Morden over a thousand angry punters end up at Heathrow!

That sounds like you speak with experience

 

[Norman Baker suck my lozenge]

That sounds like you speak with experience

Haha,fortunately I don't.

 

[simmo]

Have you bothered to read anything about this case? The pertinent fact is not that he failed a breath test but why. He was not drunk and there appears to be no suggestion that he was. According to another poster, he was 1/10th of the drink drive limit. If that is the case, and the LU were aware of his type 2 diabetes, then why the sacking. If there is an issue, why destroy the urine sample? Common sense would dictate that you retain that until the issue is resolved.

With regard to action, what action can the union take then. He was dismissed, there was an internal appeal which upheld the decision (but let's be honest, that would have been carried out by LU management anyway). The LU won't go to tribunal which the Union have suggested so what should they do. Abandon their member to unemployment! There should be due process and it would appear from the face of it that LU are not interested in that. I am sure there are more facts that we are not aware of but I can only comment on what is in the public domain.

It seems you however, are only concerned with one line of the story, ie did he fail a breath test!


As an aside, a quick look at the RMT website would suggest that this isn't the only case where LU have destroyed evidence before an issue is resolved.


What I do agree on is that the Union rep didn't do himself any favours with his outburst.

Do you bother even seeing the fact that the tube driver might actually have failed the B-Test, because he was drinking when he should not have been? A much more logical assumption for most of us for the reason for the failure. If what you state is the case then why then don't the anomolus readings show up on the B test when other type 2 diabetes tube drivers use that breathalyser? Surely this man isn't the only tube driver with Type 2 diabetes??

It also shows up the RMT's utter hypocrisy, it has held numerous strikes using the catch all phrase "safety issues" yet will strike now because one of it's members has been sacked for failing a B-Test, the irony being that a drunk tube driver obviously puts passengers safety at risk.

In respect of this "With regard to action, what action can the union take then"...it is an individual matter which appears to have had due process (I notice you just view the RMT website, getting 2 sides of the story eh). It is not a matter that effects all tube drivers. If a hackney cab driver lost his licence because he failed a B-Test would we expect all black cab drivers to go on strike? Pilots every now and again fail a B-Test, do all of the pilots of that airline go on strike?

 

[KneeOn]

Do you bother even seeing the fact that the tube driver might actually have failed the B-Test, because he was drinking when he should not have been? A much more logical assumption for most of us for the reason for the failure. If what you state is the case then why then don't the anomolus readings show up on the B test when other type 2 diabetes tube drivers use that breathalyser? Surely this man isn't the only tube driver with Type 2 diabetes??

It also shows up the RMT's utter hypocrisy, it has held numerous strikes using the catch all phrase "safety issues" yet will strike now because one of it's members has been sacked for failing a B-Test, the irony being that a drunk tube driver obviously puts passengers safety at risk.

In respect of this "With regard to action, what action can the union take then"...it is an individual matter which appears to have had due process (I notice you just view the RMT website, getting 2 sides of the story eh). It is not a matter that effects all tube drivers. If a hackney cab driver lost his licence because he failed a B-Test would we expect all black cab drivers to go on strike? Pilots every now and again fail a B-Test, do all of the pilots of that airline go on strike?

He wasn't a "drunk tube driver"
The alcohol levels on the railway are at the most 1/3 of the drink drive limit. I'm not a safety critical member of staff but can be tested and although certainly not drunk can fail this test. This is the case here.

But rules are rules, surely you all know that?
Yes, fair point in most cases. However if you've a medical condition which will make you fail a breath but not a urine because of the machine is it fair that the due process in place to protect you isn't taken?

Isn't this just a strike to flex the muscles of the union after Bob Crow?
No, this is LUL drivers saying that if a manager fails the test and the equipment is declared faulty or unreliable how can it be fair that a driver gets sacked?

RMT are hypocrites though striking needlessly - no one else does it!
Ummm. No. The stupidity and enviousness of this statement knows no bounds. So what, we've got a strong union because we as an industry refuse to bow down to cuts? Jealous that while you (broadly speaking) get to deal with pay cuts and freezes we get a pay rise? What do you think the secret to our success is? A strong union. Rather than want us to be dragged down, start one your self.

What about the passengers? We pay so much money blah blah blah... why should First Group/Stagecoach/Virgin/GoVia etc get so much?
Most of your ticket (97%) goes to Network Rail. Ironically the city workers who lament our railway/TFL are the ones who voted Conservative and put the railway in private hands. More importantly very few people in any depot want to go on strike. We lose money. We actually want a smooth service with suitable and effective recovery measures in place if things go wrong. We don't like seeing platforms full of angry customers shouting at us because some one jumped or Network Rail can't get their act together or things just went wrong in the wrong place at the wrong time and things outside of the TOCs control lead to the major delay That's why the RMT will always pull out of a strike if an agreement is made.

This is a National Rail perspective. I know of one guy who got told by the union to resign because they weren't going to win and a resignation looks better than a dismissal. I know my grade may strike due to unfair treatment of the entire grade regarding various issues. I know my depot is raising an issue with RMT regarding the plans for our station. But as long as you get from a to b, it doesn't matter who takes you there. Another person will come along surely. Oh well.
EDIT: He was refused a blood test. The urine test wasn't tested and destroyed before dismissal so you're trying to be angry at RMT when you should be asking what the LUL are doing.

 

[Triggaaar]

Are people purposefully choosing to ignore this

Maybe they've got a load of people on their ignore list

It would seem sensible to have an independent panel make the decision if the company messed up by destroying his urine sample. But even so, it does seem a bit extreme for them to have a strike over it.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

Apologies as I didn't see that however, from the same BBC report is the comment :-

One of LU's own doctors conceded that type 2 diabetes, liver disease and even fasting can give false positives on hand-held machines.

Conflicting messages. I think you are right about the Police in that you fail a road side breath test then you have to undertake another at the Police station with better equipment.

A couple of scholarly articles showing acetone not affecting breath results:

http://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=378059
http://jat.oxfordjournals.org/content/7/5/231.short

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

On a related issue, if the diabetes is affecting the breath because of a hypoglycaemic episode which other symptoms include lack of motor control they probably shouldn't be working either

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

Apologies as I didn't see that however, from the same BBC report is the comment :-

One of LU's own doctors conceded that type 2 diabetes, liver disease and even fasting can give false positives on hand-held machines.

Conflicting messages. I think you are right about the Police in that you fail a road side breath test then you have to undertake another at the Police station with better equipment.

Upon doing some further reading it seems type 1 diabetes can affect the breathalyzer, but not type 2

 

[simmo]

He wasn't a "drunk tube driver"
The alcohol levels on the railway are at the most 1/3 of the drink drive limit. I'm not a safety critical member of staff but can be tested and although certainly not drunk can fail this test. This is the case here.

But rules are rules, surely you all know that?
Yes, fair point in most cases. However if you've a medical condition which will make you fail a breath but not a urine because of the machine is it fair that the due process in place to protect you isn't taken?

Isn't this just a strike to flex the muscles of the union after Bob Crow?
No, this is LUL drivers saying that if a manager fails the test and the equipment is declared faulty or unreliable how can it be fair that a driver gets sacked?

RMT are hypocrites though striking needlessly - no one else does it!
Ummm. No. The stupidity and enviousness of this statement knows no bounds. So what, we've got a strong union because we as an industry refuse to bow down to cuts? Jealous that while you (broadly speaking) get to deal with pay cuts and freezes we get a pay rise? What do you think the secret to our success is? A strong union. Rather than want us to be dragged down, start one your self.

What about the passengers? We pay so much money blah blah blah... why should First Group/Stagecoach/Virgin/GoVia etc get so much?
Most of your ticket (97%) goes to Network Rail. Ironically the city workers who lament our railway/TFL are the ones who voted Conservative and put the railway in private hands. More importantly very few people in any depot want to go on strike. We lose money. We actually want a smooth service with suitable and effective recovery measures in place if things go wrong. We don't like seeing platforms full of angry customers shouting at us because some one jumped or Network Rail can't get their act together or things just went wrong in the wrong place at the wrong time and things outside of the TOCs control lead to the major delay That's why the RMT will always pull out of a strike if an agreement is made.

This is a National Rail perspective. I know of one guy who got told by the union to resign because they weren't going to win and a resignation looks better than a dismissal. I know my grade may strike due to unfair treatment of the entire grade regarding various issues. I know my depot is raising an issue with RMT regarding the plans for our station. But as long as you get from a to b, it doesn't matter who takes you there. Another person will come along surely. Oh well.
EDIT: He was refused a blood test. The urine test wasn't tested and destroyed before dismissal so you're trying to be angry at RMT when you should be asking what the LUL are doing.

You seem to have not even refered to my post but cut and pasted replies to a list of other questions that you have got from somewhere.

Just on one general point though....the RMT may win petty battles every now and then but by doing so they do not see what long term damage they do to their members. The day of driverless tubes is nearing and every time the union strikes over matters such as this (an individual situation) it just pushes TFL to bring this forward as quickly as they can. I reckon in less than 20 years maybe 10 there will be no such thing as a tube driver and it will be the RMT's fault.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Maybe they've got a load of people on their ignore list

It would seem sensible to have an independent panel make the decision if the company messed up by destroying his urine sample. But even so, it does seem a bit extreme for them to have a strike over it.

Not when it sets a precedent where a company can sack people at a whim after messing up the due process in the first place.

 

[Triggaaar]

Not when it sets a precedent where a company can sack people at a whim after messing up the due process in the first place.

Yes, fair point.