[Football] Raith Rovers and David Goodwillie

[cjd]

Where was all this outrage when he was playing for Clyde?

I think you have a valid point here.

Possibly with him going to a very low league team , it just didn't come to the attention of the larger country.

I suspect, that mostly when we hear about these things , there is to a degree, a slight rolling of the eyes and thoughts of young women dressing provocatively and throwing themselves at fame and fortune. There are no pictures, often no names, and none of the more graphic details. Often just a salacious story written by an unknown journalist.

A few days ago, things changed.

One young woman posted on the social media.

She stated she had been assaulted by a well known footballer.

She showed a video of herself with blood pouring down her face.

She showed a video of significant bruises on various parts of her body.

She allowed a recording of the footballer ignoring her requests NOT to have sex.

She allowed a recording of a footballer continuing to force sex on her.

She allowed a recording of the footballer threatening her if she didn't comply.

This has brought home to so many more, what is and can be construed as rape.

It was truly shocking. I'm old and long in the tooth....but I was shocked. Really shocked. I have three daughters. I never ever want them to be treated even remotely like this. I have three sons. I never ever want them to even remotely treat women like this.

People may think it's OK for a rapist after being found guilty in a civil court should be OK to re-start his career.

I don't and I truly believe the overwhelming majority of decent people feel the same.

 

[jackalbion]

That's obviously not the case - Raith took him on but the court of public opinion has resulted in them dropping him and being lumbered with his contract. I think you're setting an incredibly high bar for young men to meet. It's easy to sit back having never been in that position and judge, but personally I think the reaction in this case has been well over the top and has effectively ended his career which doesn't sit well with me. Not that it matters - I'm not particularly invested in the case or the cause, just giving an opinion.



I'm not in a position to comment, and I haven't and I won't. He should never have put himself in the position to be accused, he should have known better and it's a black mark against his character but I'm not comfortable jumping the assumptions that others are.

The incredibly high bar he's setting, is not to be a convicted rapist? I would probably say for 99.9% of people that would be a given, and probably not the bare minimum we should be holding young men to.

 

[keaton]

That's obviously not the case - Raith took him on but the court of public opinion has resulted in them dropping him and being lumbered with his contract. I think you're setting an incredibly high bar for young men to meet. It's easy to sit back having never been in that position and judge, but personally I think the reaction in this case has been well over the top and has effectively ended his career which doesn't sit well with me. Not that it matters - I'm not particularly invested in the case or the cause, just giving an opinion.



I'm not in a position to comment, and I haven't and I won't. He should never have put himself in the position to be accused, he should have known better and it's a black mark against his character but I'm not comfortable jumping the assumptions that others are.

The" incredibly high bar" is not being found responsible for a rape by a judge, I'm sorry this is just odd.

 

[rippleman]

The" incredibly high bar" is not being found responsible for a rape by a judge, I'm sorry this is just odd.

There's always one that doesn't get it. It's Badger Boy's turn.

An appeal against the decision of the court in the civil action was also thrown out by three Appeal Court judges.

It's sad that one amongst us wants to try to defend the totally indefensible.

Goodwillie is a rapist. I'm not sure the fans of any club would want a rapist turning out in their club's colours.

 

[dsr-burnley]

The incredibly high bar he's setting, is not to be a convicted rapist? I would probably say for 99.9% of people that would be a given, and probably not the bare minimum we should be holding young men to.

He isn't actually a convicted rapist. A civil court verdict isn't the same as a conviction.

I suspect what Badger Boy is getting at, and if he isn't I am, is that Goodwillie's crime is not of the same degree as the drag-a-girl-into-a-back-alley rape. This is a much lower level case. This was a man who had sex with a drunken woman who wanted to have sex with him. I'm sure Goodwillie isn't the only man to have done such a thing.

When two people have drunken sex and one of them is a little less drunk than the other, the less drunk one is probably guilty of rape in law. That's what this is about. Anybody, whether rich or poor, famous or unknown, who has ever had drunken sex, may have committed the crime of rape.

 

[jackalbion]

He isn't actually a convicted rapist. A civil court verdict isn't the same as a conviction.

I suspect what Badger Boy is getting at, and if he isn't I am, is that Goodwillie's crime is not of the same degree as the drag-a-girl-into-a-back-alley rape. This is a much lower level case. This was a man who had sex with a drunken woman who wanted to have sex with him. I'm sure Goodwillie isn't the only man to have done such a thing.

When two people have drunken sex and one of them is a little less drunk than the other, the less drunk one is probably guilty of rape in law. That's what this is about. Anybody, whether rich or poor, famous or unknown, who has ever had drunken sex, may have committed the crime of rape.

This really isn't it as well, if someone is drunker than you and you have sex with them, you are taking advantage of them. The fact they consented at the time while intoxicated does not mean that they made a valid decision. It is still a crime.

 

[McTavish]

He isn't actually a convicted rapist. A civil court verdict isn't the same as a conviction.

I suspect what Badger Boy is getting at, and if he isn't I am, is that Goodwillie's crime is not of the same degree as the drag-a-girl-into-a-back-alley rape. This is a much lower level case. This was a man who had sex with a drunken woman who wanted to have sex with him. I'm sure Goodwillie isn't the only man to have done such a thing.

When two people have drunken sex and one of them is a little less drunk than the other, the less drunk one is probably guilty of rape in law. That's what this is about. Anybody, whether rich or poor, famous or unknown, who has ever had drunken sex, may have committed the crime of rape.

You certainly can be convicted in a civil case and Goodwillie was. It is a civil conviction rather than a criminal conviction but it is a conviction nonetheless.

There is absolutely no basis for your assertion that Denise Clair (not just "a drunken woman" but a real person) wanted to have sex with Goodwillie.

If you want to read more there is a good summary here: https://www.scotsman.com/news/peopl...dwillie-what-did-a-judge-rule-in-2017-3551381

 

[keaton]

He isn't actually a convicted rapist. A civil court verdict isn't the same as a conviction.

I suspect what Badger Boy is getting at, and if he isn't I am, is that Goodwillie's crime is not of the same degree as the drag-a-girl-into-a-back-alley rape. This is a much lower level case. This was a man who had sex with a drunken woman who wanted to have sex with him. I'm sure Goodwillie isn't the only man to have done such a thing.

When two people have drunken sex and one of them is a little less drunk than the other, the less drunk one is probably guilty of rape in law. That's what this is about. Anybody, whether rich or poor, famous or unknown, who has ever had drunken sex, may have committed the crime of rape.

Why have you mentioned she wanted to have sex with him when the judge ruled she was incapable of giving consent? You also mention two people when this case involved three people.

So basically if you and a mate have had sex with a girl who was incapable of giving consent due to being that drunk, you are a rapist.
That sounds fair enough really

 

[macbeth]

it was just obvious that it was going to end this way. i cannot believe they thought this would fly

 

[dsr-burnley]

Why have you mentioned she wanted to have sex with him when the judge ruled she was incapable of giving consent? You also mention two people when this case involved three people.

So basically if you and a mate have had sex with a girl who was incapable of giving consent due to being that drunk, you are a rapist.
That sounds fair enough really

No. It's not automatic that all drunken sex is rape. If it was, then two consenting adults could be guilty of raping each other simultaneously.

She was capable of giving consent in the sense that she could say yes. Not in the legal sense of being sufficiently compos mentis to mean it.

 

[Badger Boy]

The incredibly high bar he's setting, is not to be a convicted rapist? I would probably say for 99.9% of people that would be a given, and probably not the bare minimum we should be holding young men to.

He isn't a convicted rapist. If he were a convicted rapist, it would be a very different story. There was no criminal case.

The" incredibly high bar" is not being found responsible for a rape by a judge, I'm sorry this is just odd.

I don't disagree with you - I've never put myself in a position to be accused of such a crime as the majority of people haven't. But I've also never had to deal with the fame and relative fortune that comes with being a young professional footballer with an ego to match. I have no understanding of this man's life, the night in question or what happened. I'm not as quick to jump to conclusions as others are.

 

[dsr-burnley]

You certainly can be convicted in a civil case and Goodwillie was. It is a civil conviction rather than a criminal conviction but it is a conviction nonetheless.

There is absolutely no basis for your assertion that Denise Clair (not just "a drunken woman" but a real person) wanted to have sex with Goodwillie.

If you want to read more there is a good summary here: https://www.scotsman.com/news/peopl...dwillie-what-did-a-judge-rule-in-2017-3551381

Maybe you know more about Scottish law than me. I've never heard of losing a civil case being a "civil conviction", but maybe so. But drunken women are real people too. I have never suggested that she isn't a real person, but on that night she was certainly a drunken woman. That's the crux of the case.

There was evidence presented in court that she was willing to go with the men to the flat and that she wanted to have sex. There was no evidence presented to counteract that.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Maybe you know more about Scottish law than me. I've never heard of losing a civil case being a "civil conviction", but maybe so. But drunken women are real people too. I have never suggested that she isn't a real person, but on that night she was certainly a drunken woman. That's the crux of the case.

There was evidence presented in court that she was willing to go with the men to the flat and that she wanted to have sex. There was no evidence presented to counteract that.

A judge found that they raped the woman

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-38651041

I complement Val McDermid for the stand that she took against the club signing this individual and I complement the club for belatedly saying this individual will never play for the club - he should never have been signed.

Man Utd could take a leaf from their book (and remember there is still a Brighton player under investigation as well)

 

[keaton]

No. It's not automatic that all drunken sex is rape. If it was, then two consenting adults could be guilty of raping each other simultaneously.

She was capable of giving consent in the sense that she could say yes. Not in the legal sense of being sufficiently compos mentis to mean it.

I know to both, you're the one who seemed to be struggling with this

 

[keaton]

He isn't a convicted rapist. If he were a convicted rapist, it would be a very different story. There was no criminal case.



I don't disagree with you - I've never put myself in a position to be accused of such a crime as the majority of people haven't. But I've also never had to deal with the fame and relative fortune that comes with being a young professional footballer with an ego to match. I have no understanding of this man's life, the night in question or what happened. I'm not as quick to jump to conclusions as others are.

But I don't see it's jumping to conclusions if he's been found guilty of something.

 

[McTavish]

He isn't a convicted rapist. If he were a convicted rapist, it would be a very different story. There was no criminal case.

He has been convicted of rape, just not in a criminal court. If you choose to claim that he is therefore not a convicted rapist that's your perogative but he has been convicted of rape.

Lord Armstrong - the judge in the case said:
“In the result, therefore, I find that in the early hours of Sunday 2 January 2011, at the flat in Greig Crescent, Armadale, both defenders took advantage of the pursuer when she was vulnerable through an excessive intake of alcohol and, because her cognitive functioning and decision‑making processes were so impaired, was incapable of giving meaningful consent; and that they each raped her."

 

[father_and_son]

He isn't actually a convicted rapist. A civil court verdict isn't the same as a conviction.

I suspect what Badger Boy is getting at, and if he isn't I am, is that Goodwillie's crime is not of the same degree as the drag-a-girl-into-a-back-alley rape. This is a much lower level case. This was a man who had sex with a drunken woman who wanted to have sex with him. I'm sure Goodwillie isn't the only man to have done such a thing.

When two people have drunken sex and one of them is a little less drunk than the other, the less drunk one is probably guilty of rape in law. That's what this is about. Anybody, whether rich or poor, famous or unknown, who has ever had drunken sex, may have committed the crime of rape.

There is no rape-lite for the victim! Suggesting that this is a "lower level" case of rape shows your own ignorance.

 

[dsr-burnley]

There is no rape-lite for the victim! Suggesting that this is a "lower level" case of rape shows your own ignorance.

They need to change the sentencing guidelines, then.

 

[father_and_son]

They need to change the sentencing guidelines, then.

You truly are a contemptible human being.

 

[lawros left foot]

They need to change the sentencing guidelines, then.

Jeez,

There was NO sentence, because it was a civil case. There was insufficient evidence for a criminal case, in which guilt must be proved ‘ beyond reasonable doubt’

A total of 4 Judges considered that there was sufficient evidence to find the victim’s case proven because the burden of proof is less, ‘a probability of guilt’.

When you consider the amount of rape cases either not brought to Court or not proven guilty, then the probability of guilt in this case must have been very strong for the Judges to find the way they did.