[Finance] Rachel Reeves to reveal £20bn shortfall left by Conservative Government

[Weststander]

It does but they may have narrowed the target by too much. There are 800,000 people eligible for pension credits who don't currently get it so therefore won't now get the winter fuel payment.
This really does highlight the urgent need for a simple but accurate (as far as possible) means testing system in this country.

Lots don’t claim simply due to a lack of knowledge. Perhaps Labour can help them with improved communication.

 

[Weststander]

This coming winter would have been he first time that I became eligible to the winter fuel payment, That’s now gone, frankly it would have been nice, but I can live without it, same as others who I’m aware of. The worry is those just above the benefit threshold who are struggling now, and will be more so in the winter.

With reference to the 22% pay rise for medics, then they may get the pay rise, but their tax and NI contributions will also increase, there will also be those who will go through the basic rate tax to higher rate thresholds, so maybe not the full 22%. Give with one hand and take away with the other.

With the upcoming budget I can see that that tax relief may be aligned, so higher rate tax payers are not able to claim higher rate tax relief on their contributions, something that I have though was unfair for some time.

There’s talk of a very simple 30% tax relief on pension contributions.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Maybe Harry, but after all his tough talk about sorting out the NHS and ‘taking on vested interests’, this has given me a ‘hmm’ moment with regards to the outcome of the future battles ahead, if he is to achieve his ambition.
PS. I don’t think any Health Secretary ever wanted to block all pay increases for medics and the militant medicos were never going to settle with the Tories.

Militant medicos? I work with the youngsters from time to time. I have never met a socialist medic. I have met a few in their early 30s, trying to pursue a hospital doctor career and putting marriages under threat due to long hours and inadequate pay. One young colleague moved to Canada. Another, a Hungarian, went back home to take a lower paid job but with the chance to have a family life in a country where housing is peanuts compared with the UK. They have a point about pay. A very good point. The sacrifices made to get to consultant grade are onerous.

As for Streeting, there are many things to tackle. Medic pays is only one of them. I'll wait for a year to see how he's doing before making up my mind.

Perhaps fixing the true 'vested interests' may be next. For example, consultants, moonlighting in private clinics. Like the one who did my mate's knee replacements. The consultant who, in his NHS office, told my mate the wait would be 2 years, was the same bloke who did the work 3 months later, privately. That is scandalous.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

There’s talk of a very simple 30% tax relief on pension contributions.

Very simple? You and I love that. Like flat rate income tax.

Politics, however, is the art of the possible....

 

[Weststander]

Very simple? You and I love that. Like flat rate income tax.

Politics, however, is the art of the possible....

Basic rate and non tax payers would gain from that, those at higher rates who pay into pension schemes would receive less. Also far sighted, the hoi polloi should end up with more in their pension pots.

 

[BLOCK F]

This is a very good point. Universal benefits, not means tested, has always seemed unfair to me.

When I was a kid I did Saturday shopping for a woman (who live much nearer the shops than my family). This was a spin out from bob-a-job week. The family all smoked like chimneys, and took two foreign holidays a year. We on the other hand stayed in a Caravan in Teignmouth for a week, if lucky.

Oddly my dad had bought our home, on a 25 year mortgage, whereas my employers lived in a council house. As a nine year old I asked myself why they lived in a council house.

When I was a student, one of my mates lived in a council flat with his nan. Thirty years later, a technician in my place of work lived in a council flat with his nan. When she died, he was in his 50s. He was able to take over the lease. He was the very same former student who unlike me, who created an independent life, spent his income from a well paid job on gigs and weed. Then went on sick leave when forced to think about his future.

Council houses are great for taking the poor out of slums. But were they really meant to be a sinecure to be passed on to feckless kids?

My neighbour left school with no qualifications. She and her hubby moved from London to buy their house in the 70s when it could be done. She worked three cleaning jobs to put herself through part time training to become a social worker. Unbelievable graft. The house is now paid off.

My in laws live in a council house. When they die, it will be passed back to the council. An opportunity to buy and cash in was eschewed, for no apparent reason. Fear of the responsibility was part of it. I'm not sure what to make of it.

Sorry for the rambling. As a labour man I expect the state to help the needy, but not to subsidize the abandonment of ambition, saving, taking risks and graft. Obviously the council house culture is largely gone, and we now have a overpriced housing scam whereby without the bank of mum and dad most kids will be stuck in the rental sector for ever. 'Rebalancing', the Tories would call it.

We seem to have lurched from pillar to post since 1945. First the creation of a nationalized economy and the 'welfare state', leading to 1970s style expansion of petty working class wealth and the booze and fag culture. Then Thatcher, a transient enrichment of lucky council house renters, converted to home owners and working class Tories (eugh!) and the great Rebalancing. For those who gained, only the imaginary enemy of immigrants dragged them off the sofa to shake their tiny fists at the ruin of the English way of life. It would be nice to see some hard nosed rationality going forward, now we have defenestrated the last of the political charlatans. Will Labour seize the day? There will be pushback....

Given the hubristic reaction by the Tories to todays means tested fuel payment initiative (the "greatest ever electoral betrayal") I don't see the Tory culture wars moderating themselves any time soon.

I agree with the vast majority of what you post, but hey, what is this rebalancing lark the Tories are going on about? This Tory voter, except for this election, has three children and is as worried about the awful position that young people find themselves in regarding housing as any non Tory voter. For years, I have banged on about the price of housing in this country, way before I even had children. I’ve always said it would end in tears and it has. I am also mighty pissed of with the nimbys and bananas. For those not familiar with this acronym, it means ‘build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything’. I hope the new Government has a real go at them.
As far as the fuel payment change is concerned, as I have previously posted, it is a legitimate target and I certainly don’t see it as ‘the greatest ever electoral betrayal.’
Not all of us who are natural Tory voters are quite as selfish and daft as some on here make out and I do believe you share that view…….well I hope so!

 

[Bodian]

I haven’t given it all that much thought, but during successful negotiations it is usual for both sides to get something they want.

Getting them down from the 35% they wanted maybe?

 

[BN41Albion]

Have China, India, Russia and Iran stepped up then? We're down in 17th on the league table. That 11bn would be better spent at home, unless you think your taxes are too low already and are happy to pay into the WEF to 'fight climate'

We import all our shit from the likes of China and india. The western world are just as responsible for their carbon footprint as they are themselves

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

On the other hand, they need to be careful not to encourage a position where it's perceived that people who've spent everything get given more while people who've saved get it taken off them.

That’s normal council behaviour isn’t it, use any left over cash on vanity projects as if we come in under budget we get less next year

 

[BN41Albion]

Amongst other things the winter fuel payments to pensioners to be means tested and the A27 Arundel bypass has been scrapped.

Fully agree with the winter fuel payments being scrapped bar those who need it, but that's a huge shame re the Arundel bypass. When on earth is our infrastructure going to even start to meet the demands of countless new housing estates being built ffs

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree with the vast majority of what you post, but hey, what is this rebalancing lark the Tories are going on about? This Tory voter, except for this election, has three children and is as worried about the awful position that young people find themselves in regarding housing as any non Tory voter. For years, I have banged on about the price of housing in this country, way before I even had children. I’ve always said it would end in tears and it has. I am also mighty pissed of with the nimbys and bananas. For those not familiar with this acronym, it means ‘build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything’. I hope the new Government has a real go at them.
As far as the fuel payment change is concerned, as I have previously posted, it is a legitimate target and I certainly don’t see it as ‘the greatest ever electoral betrayal.’
Not all of us who are natural Tory voters are quite as selfish and daft as some on here make out and I do believe you share that view…….well I hope so!

I suspect we are almost fully aligned on almost all issues (I'll not mention Witch House and Wave music). I have no quibbles with lifetime tory voters, who have made a reasonable judgement that the Tory party had aims and objectives more aligned with their perspective. I understand the abreaction, especially in the 60s and 70s, to the alignment between Labour MPs and the one-eyed union leaders of the time. When I was young I had no affinity with Labour. I regarded union leaders as socially conservative reactionaries, with no time for 'poofs, niggers and layabouts'. I drifted towards Labour (through gritted teeth during the Kinnock era) mainly as a reaction to the needless social vandalism caused by Thatcher.....

I use the term 'rebalancing' as a sarcastic reference to those on the right (perhaps far right) who considered that things 'went too far' between 1945 and the mid 70s, when the 'proletariat' had lots of work available, and we saw the emergence of genuine working class opportunity (and culture). My dad was demobbed in 45, and got an apprenticeship with the GPO. Seven years later, married, he bought a flat in Brighton. Five years more saving and they got a mortgage on a bungalow in Rottingdean. Five years later they were able to upgrade to a semi in Portslade. Eighteen years of graft resulted in a 25 year mortgage, but the job with the GPO was 'for life'. If you put in the time, you could have a life.

The 'rebalancing' as I see it that began with Thatcher has created a massive gulf between house prices and affordability. Modern day contemporaries of my dad are 'safe' either because they have very special jobs that pay eye-watering amounts, or more likely because mum and dad are able and willing to cash-in a pension lump sum to help. My consultant colleague managed to do that for his kids, and I am in the process of doing so for my son. Lucky me. Lucky him.

But the 'rebalancing' has, among other things, put home ownership out of the realms of possibility for a majority. I think this is the result of deliberate policy. I could be wrong. It could simply be carelessness.

This is an interesting article. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/...en-years-of-conservative-rule-done-to-britain

Here is a quote from it:

"One former Cabinet minister conceded that there were “big strategic moves” to favor older voters, who were more likely to vote Conservative, in the form of pension increases and interventions to raise property prices. David Gauke, a Treasury minister from 2010 to 2017, agreed that the parts of the country that had benefitted most under Labour had seen their budgets cut under the Conservatives. “There was a rebalancing that went on,” he said. “Did it go too far? Maybe it did.”"

 

[BLOCK F]

Militant medicos? I work with the youngsters from time to time. I have never met a socialist medic. I have met a few in their early 30s, trying to pursue a hospital doctor career and putting marriages under threat due to long hours and inadequate pay. One young colleague moved to Canada. Another, a Hungarian, went back home to take a lower paid job but with the chance to have a family life in a country where housing is peanuts compared with the UK. They have a point about pay. A very good point. The sacrifices made to get to consultant grade are onerous.

As for Streeting, there are many things to tackle. Medic pays is only one of them. I'll wait for a year to see how he's doing before making up my mind.

Perhaps fixing the true 'vested interests' may be next. For example, consultants, moonlighting in private clinics. Like the one who did my mate's knee replacements. The consultant who, in his NHS office, told my mate the wait would be 2 years, was the same bloke who did the work 3 months later, privately. That is scandalous.

Even moderate doctors have lamented that the BMA has been taken over by a number of militants, so I cannot agree with you on this.
Socialist medics? Maybe not too many of the Jezza variety, but militant and powerful the BMA has proved to be and even more so nowadays.
PS. You probably know I come from a medical family, as I have mentioned it before, but I can tell you that my father, mother, grandmother, uncle and aunt would be turning in their graves at the junior doctors strikes. And as they say, ‘ for the purpose of fair debate’ I know they didn’t always approve of what various governments have done to the NHS over the years, either!
Yup, I like Wes, and am, like you, reserving judgement, but he’s got a hell of a batttle on his hands and this may not be made any easier by the powerful BMA lobby.
Finally, your comment re your mate’s knees is nothing new, it has been the case for ages. I had both knees replaced privately almost 20 years ago and if I had waited for the NHS, it would have been a hell of a wait, even then. Things are worse now and not helped by Covid, strikes, ageing population etc.etc.
More power to Wes, I wish him well!

 

[BLOCK F]

Getting them down from the 35% they wanted maybe?

That was a given, I think. They were never going to get 35%.

 

[Chicken Run]

Fully agree with the winter fuel payments being scrapped bar those who need it, but that's a huge shame re the Arundel bypass. When on earth is our infrastructure going to even start to meet the demands of countless new housing estates being built ffs

. When on earth is our infrastructure going to even start to meet the demands of countless new housing estates being built ffs

Don’t forget that if last year is anything to go by an extra 685,000 new UK residents a year all need somwhere to live so that they might ply their trade a pay tax into UKPLC

 

[Weststander]

Fully agree with the winter fuel payments being scrapped bar those who need it, but that's a huge shame re the Arundel bypass. When on earth is our infrastructure going to even start to meet the demands of countless new housing estates being built ffs

Remarkably, Labour announced the scrapping of the Arundel bypass back in June. To announce the cash would be spent on repairing potholes.

Worthing/Arundel A27 - we avoid it like the plague. Utter tedium. It’s got steadily worse as the coastal belt between Durrington and Bognor is redeveloped apace with new housing estates, (ironically) shiny new car dealerships, and retail parks.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

Remarkably, Labour announced the scrapping of the Arundel bypass back in June. To announce the cash would be spent on repairing potholes.

Worthing/Arundel A27 - we avoid it like the plague. Utter tedium. It’s got steadily worse as the coastal belt between Durrington and Bognor is redeveloped apace with new housing estates, (ironically) shiny new car dealerships, and retail parks.

And then you get the Chichester bypass which is appalling, especially at this time of year when people are heading to East & West Wittering.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Fully agree with the winter fuel payments being scrapped bar those who need it, but that's a huge shame re the Arundel bypass. When on earth is our infrastructure going to even start to meet the demands of countless new housing estates being built ffs

A perspective from AGE UK

 

[Me Atome]

A perspective from AGE UK

View attachment 186250

I recall an argument that it would cost more to administer this change than the amount of money actually saved.

 

[BN41Albion]

And then you get the Chichester bypass which is appalling, especially at this time of year when people are heading to East & West Wittering.

Agree - such a mess out that side of Sussex. The Chichester bypass is absolutely awful.
Yet, build, build, build and sod the consequences!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Even moderate doctors have lamented that the BMA has been taken over by a number of militants, so I cannot agree with you on this.
Socialist medics? Maybe not too many of the Jezza variety, but militant and powerful the BMA has proved to be and even more so nowadays.
PS. You probably know I come from a medical family, as I have mentioned it before, but I can tell you that my father, mother, grandmother, uncle and aunt would be turning in their graves at the junior doctors strikes. And as they say, ‘ for the purpose of fair debate’ I know they didn’t always approve of what various governments have done to the NHS over the years, either!
Yup, I like Wes, and am, like you, reserving judgement, but he’s got a hell of a batttle on his hands and this may not be made any easier by the powerful BMA lobby.
Finally, your comment re your mate’s knees is nothing new, it has been the case for ages. I had both knees replaced privately almost 20 years ago and if I had waited for the NHS, it would have been a hell of a wait, even then. Things are worse now and not helped by Covid, strikes, ageing population etc.etc.
More power to Wes, I wish him well!

Thanks for your insights. I will do a bit of research about the BMA.