R I P Muhammad Ali.

[Mo Gosfield]

Tyson was vastly overrated, even in his prime Holyfield & Lewis would have beaten him, I would have also strongly fancied Riddick Bowe.

True champions battle back from adversity, everytime Tyson was challenged he either took the easy way out or lost.

Tyson was the ultimate bully, a great bully and destructive puncher with phenomenal speed but a good jab and lateral movement would have blunted Tyson early and then there was never a plan B.

The clip a couple above is Ali vs Cleveland Williams that fight is close to perfection and Ali at his best. There was a similar performance against Zara Foley and then almost 4 years inactivity.

In 1967 he was untouchable and would have reigned as heavyweight champion for many years. He would have beaten the up and coming Frazier and would have retired much earlier than he did. The years of inactivity, after refusing the draft, blunted his edge and forced him into a longer career against a series of top heavyweights. Whether the onset of parkinsons would have been avoided is not known but he would not have gone on much past 1975 and would have avoided a lot of punishment late in his career.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Clay was robbed of his greatest years in boxing by the then American estabslishment...


Oh the irony the same American establishment are now foaming at the mouth in praise..

Well he did refuse the draft into the US Army and he was well aware of the penalty. In all seriousness, he wouldn't have had to do long and the authorities would have looked at him leniently and allowed him to ' box behind closed doors '
Joe Louis lost his best years to the Second World War, as did many others. Some lost their lives. Ali stood up for his principles but knew the price he had to pay. There were no exceptions to the rule. Even Elvis got drafted.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I dont know why people expect boxers to have impeccable characters. They smack each other in the head for a living and the pre-fight verbals 1) build the fight and 2) get in to the head of the opponent. They shouldn't be taken too seriously.

In terms of his own personal views towards white people, growing up in the Deep South, its difficult to see how could Ali could not have been shaped by the racial prejudice, oppression and violence towards african americans and the legally enforced racial segregation in the US in the 1950s.

He attacked Frazier outside of the fight game. Demeaned him and treated him like shit. So what he said and did should be taken seriously. Frazier was always known as being a gentleman, never deserved the vitriol he recieved.

His views were shaped by the Nation of Islam, a bunch of racist bigots. He ripped Martin Luther King and was ripped by Jackie Robinson( a bigger hero than Ali ever was) for his views. Ali sucked people in with his theatrics, the real Ali wasn't worth hero worshipping.

 

[JCL666]

He attacked Frazier outside of the fight game. Demeaned him and treated him like shit. So what he said and did should be taken seriously. Frazier was always known as being a gentleman, never deserved the vitriol he recieved.

His views were shaped by the Nation of Islam, a bunch of racist bigots. He ripped Martin Luther King and was ripped by Jackie Robinson( a bigger hero than Ali ever was) for his views. Ali sucked people in with his theatrics, the real Ali wasn't worth hero worshipping.

Partly true.

Yep he treated Frazier badly, and spent years after trying to reconcile with him.

Also Alis initial views on Islam were from Elijah Muhammed, but he actually changed to mainstream and far less radical beliefs in the 70s.

People make mistakes, no one said Ali was perfect. At least he tried to rectify the things he did.

 

[Del Fenner]

Sorry Lord B I can't agree with you on that having lived through those times. The point was South Vietnam and North Vietnam were different countries, Ho Chi Minh and his regime were no angels and mercilessly terrorised innocent South Vietnam civilians much as ISIS does today "pour decourager les autres". Unfortunately the US as usual tried to fight them with fists rather than hearts and minds as we did in Malaya in the 1950's so successfully.

There is a pretty strong case that South Vietnam was not a legitimate country and that the French and Americans had refused to implement rule of the whole of Vietnam by the Vietnamese for the Vietnamese under the historical mandate of 1945 and the military consequences of the fall of Dien Bien Phu in 1954. South Vietnam was notoriously corrupt, concentrated power in the hands of a few figureheads, and had scant support from the Vietnamese people. It's existence was purely owing to the anti-Communist agendas of the USA and France.

 

[Seagull58]

I can't be the only old git on NSC who remembers the period in sixties, when "draft dodger" was a badge of honour. It was quite obvious that it was the US who were the perpetrators of evil in Vietnam and that the war needed to be resisted. Has history and Hollywood really changed that view?

I'm with you. He didn't dodge the draft. He confronted it head on and said "No" because it was an unjust war and against his religious beliefs

 

[Mo Gosfield]

He also said the white man is a blue eyed blond headed devil.

I'm sure he changed his view in later life though.

He was indoctrinated by the Black Muslims. Elijah Muhammad was forever spouting that garbage. Eventually and slowly he started to distance himself from them but only after EM had been discredited and some time after EM had sanctioned the murder of Malcolm X.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

He attacked Frazier outside of the fight game. Demeaned him and treated him like shit. So what he said and did should be taken seriously. Frazier was always known as being a gentleman, never deserved the vitriol he recieved.

His views were shaped by the Nation of Islam, a bunch of racist bigots. He ripped Martin Luther King and was ripped by Jackie Robinson( a bigger hero than Ali ever was) for his views. Ali sucked people in with his theatrics, the real Ali wasn't worth hero worshipping.

It wasn't just Frazier that he attacked verbally. He reacted badly to anyone that wouldn't call him Ali. Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell were carried through fights and suffered terrible punishment as he taunted them with..." whats my name, whats my name " He humiliated them and made them suffer in public. Repeatedly calling Frazier an Uncle Tom was shocking and Sonny Liston was subjected to months of vitriol.
At the time, a lot of people found it amusing and it made good press but in later years, I'm sure he regretted many of his antics.

 

[Seagull58]

DSTV have opened a Mohammed Ali channel on satellite here. Currently showing the thriller in manila. Now in round 6 and I think Frazier is still able to see out of his one good eye at this point. What an incredible fight that was.2 fighters doing all but kill each other for 14 rounds and both, I think, permanently damaged as a result. One of the bravest spectacles you will ever see. Interesting to note that they touched gloves in mutual admiration at the end of some of the rounds.

 

[Danny-Boy]

Well he did refuse the draft into the US Army and he was well aware of the penalty. In all seriousness, he wouldn't have had to do long and the authorities would have looked at him leniently and allowed him to ' box behind closed doors '
Joe Louis lost his best years to the Second World War, as did many others. Some lost their lives. Ali stood up for his principles but knew the price he had to pay. There were no exceptions to the rule. Even Elvis got drafted.

Bruce Springsteen dodged it. Now he's treated as an all-American hero.

 

[Danny-Boy]

It wasn't just Frazier that he attacked verbally. He reacted badly to anyone that wouldn't call him Ali. Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell were carried through fights and suffered terrible punishment as he taunted them with..." whats my name, whats my name " He humiliated them and made them suffer in public. Repeatedly calling Frazier an Uncle Tom was shocking and Sonny Liston was subjected to months of vitriol.
At the time, a lot of people found it amusing and it made good press but in later years, I'm sure he regretted many of his antics.

Liston probably deserved it, wasn't he is with the Mob or something like that? The whole pattern of the Ali-Liston bouts is a bit dubious, I think Liston said before his death he was paid to lie down.

 

[Danny-Boy]

There is a pretty strong case that South Vietnam was not a legitimate country and that the French and Americans had refused to implement rule of the whole of Vietnam by the Vietnamese for the Vietnamese under the historical mandate of 1945 and the military consequences of the fall of Dien Bien Phu in 1954. South Vietnam was notoriously corrupt, concentrated power in the hands of a few figureheads, and had scant support from the Vietnamese people. It's existence was purely owing to the anti-Communist agendas of the USA and France.

So how in that case does it differ from South Korea which we (and virtually all the then UN) backed, against the totalitarian Communist regime of Kim Il Sung in North Korea? I would agree that Dien Bien Phu forced the withdrawal of France from Indo-China, but the other Indo-Chinese states of Cambodia and Laos were not subject initially to the Communist/Anticommunist divide that partitioned Vietnam suffered. North Vietnam was effectively bankrolled by China and the USSR. Had Mao not succeeded in overturning the Nationalists in China in 1949, it's doubtful whether Ho could have taken on the French, let alone the Yanks.

And what about the "Boat People"? Were they all "corrupt"?

 

[Del Fenner]

So how in that case does it differ from South Korea which we (and virtually all the then UN) backed, against the totalitarian Communist regime of Kim Il Sung in North Korea? I would agree that Dien Bien Phu forced the withdrawal of France from Indo-China, but the other Indo-Chinese states of Cambodia and Laos were not subject initially to the Communist/Anticommunist divide that partitioned Vietnam suffered. North Vietnam was effectively bankrolled by China and the USSR. Had Mao not succeeded in overturning the Nationalists in China in 1949, it's doubtful whether Ho could have taken on the French, let alone the Yanks.

And what about the "Boat People"? Were they all "corrupt"?

There are substantial similarities with Korea, in that generally the population of both were strongly against partition and would have preferred self-determination, (in the case of Vietnam, reneged upon by the French urged on by the Americans) whilst at the same time the great powers were intervening.

Did the "Boat People" represent the South Vietnamese regime? A close relative of mine worked with the British Council for Aid To Refugees (BICAR) as a Vietnamese speaking interpreter, aiding those being resettled in Britain, and certainly in the first wave, most were ranking officials in the South Vietnamese government (the Mayor of Saigon became a good friend of his), and had made payment of a large amount of gold to be permitted to depart. Possibly in later waves things became more diluted, but certainly the richest members of the population were usually associated with the corrupt regime.

 

[Danny-Boy]

There are substantial similarities with Korea, in that generally the population of both were strongly against partition and would have preferred self-determination, (in the case of Vietnam, reneged upon by the French urged on by the Americans) whilst at the same time the great powers were intervening.

Did the "Boat People" represent the South Vietnamese regime? A close relative of mine worked with the British Council for Aid To Refugees (BICAR) as a Vietnamese speaking interpreter, aiding those being resettled in Britain, and certainly in the first wave, most were ranking officials in the South Vietnamese government (the Mayor of Saigon became a good friend of his), and had made payment of a large amount of gold to be permitted to depart. Possibly in later waves things became more diluted, but certainly the richest members of the population were usually associated with the corrupt regime.

Thanks that's really revealing. Interestingly on BBC R4 news at 10 this morning they announced that the body of a dead British climber had been found on a peak in "North Vietnam"!

The Viet Cong led by Ho Chi Minh of course embroiled the neigbouring countries of Laos and Cambodia in the struggle against the Saigon government by building the "Ho Chi Minh" trail to supply their forces South of the border (wasn't it just a geograhical line of latitude?) so that Us aircraft would have to strike in countries which were avowedly "neutral" at the time.

Another interesting sign of the "old regime" was a few months ago when BBC R4 interviewed people working in Ho Chi Minh City as being part of a new technical revolution in Vietnam. One Australian woman, a computer expert, said it was ideal cost-wise for her to use "Saigon" as a base. I wonder if its so ideal for her now...

 

[Seagull58]

Bruce Springsteen dodged it. Now he's treated as an all-American hero.

He failed the medical according to his long diatribe on my Springsteen CD before he plays The River.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

And what about the "Boat People"? Were they all "corrupt"?

They were the Buddhists and Catholics escaping religious persecution by the Communists. Still going on today.

 

[Danny-Boy]

They were the Buddhists and Catholics escaping religious persecution by the Communists. Still going on today.

What we have forgotten in the "rehabilitation" of Ho Chi Minh and other pantheons of the Asian Communist movement, is that the Americans tended to think of the Pacific rim as their back-yard. They were intensely worried of what they saw as a Communist "encirclement" in both hemispheres. This displayed itself in the so-called "Domino Theory" governing their policy to SE Asia, in particular to former French Indo-China. Their fear was that if South Vietnam fell, so would Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Burma. Then Malaysia would come under threat from the South (Sukarno's Indonesia) and the North. The Japanese Co-Prosperity Sphere of WW2 would be recast in a Marxist flavour.

At the same time this was going on The USA purportedly helped to undermine the Socialist Government of Australia under Gough Whitlam in the early 1970's. The Heath British government co-operated with this leading the Governor-General, a relic of Colonial rule, being able to "sack " Whitlam's government as "undemocratic".

 

[Danny-Boy]

He failed the medical according to his long diatribe on my Springsteen CD before he plays The River.

Try reading a book called "The Drifters" by James Mitchenor. In it a character describes how to "dodge" the draft by medical means... I think it was called "Little Casino" and "Big Casino"..

 

[kevo]

Nice story about Ali and his life-long pen pal:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36461015

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

At the same time this was going on The USA purportedly helped to undermine the Socialist Government of Australia under Gough Whitlam in the early 1970's. The Heath British government co-operated with this leading the Governor-General, a relic of Colonial rule, being able to "sack " Whitlam's government as "undemocratic".

Whitlam was a typical socialist, loved spending other people's money at a great rate. Prize dickhead, didn't need the US or the UK to help point that out to the rational thinkers.