[Drinking] Question Time Official SHAMBLES Thead

[Thunder Bolt]

To be fair, I'm pro-remain and I can see at least a couple of potential benefits in theory. 1) the current state of the EU economic system doesn't really work with a few bigger nations with lots of regulation essentially looking after the rest who have much smaller economies. Eventually the bigger nations aren't going to be able to keep bailing these nations out or propping them up. 2) in theory there's access to a wider array of countries to make trade deals with on our own terms, none of which we have to negotiate with other countries to get.

Obviously there are major flaws in these arguments that don't take a ton of effort to make, but they are still decent economic reasons on the face of it. And they're just two of them.

David Cameron got an agreement that the UK wouldn't contribute to more bail outs.
We did agree a loan with Portugal which has been paid back in full.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

David Cameron got an agreement that the UK wouldn't contribute to more bail outs.
We did agree a loan with Portugal which has been paid back in full.

"Obviously there are major flaws in these arguments that don't take a ton of effort to make"

 

[TWOCHOICEStom]

Obviously there are major flaws in these arguments that don't take a ton of effort to make, but they are still decent economic reasons on the face of it. And they're just two of them.

How can they be both of those things?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Gina Miller absolutely owns the audience with facts.

True patriot

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

How can they be both of those things?

"they're still decent economic reasons on the face of it" i.e. if you read the Daily Mail and don't intend to do a ton of reading around the subject to find out why they're flawed arguments.

And let's be honest, whatever the 2019 Leave campaign wants us to believe, there are a fair portion of Leave voters that voted because of a number on a bus in 2016. On the face of it, £350m into the NHS sounds great and it's well worth voting for. But it's a completely flawed argument if you do any research around it.

 

[WATFORD zero]

"they're still decent economic reasons on the face of it" i.e. if you read the Daily Mail and don't intend to do a ton of reading around the subject to find out why they're flawed arguments.

And let's be honest, whatever the 2019 Leave campaign wants us to believe, there are a fair portion of Leave voters that voted because of a number on a bus in 2016. On the face of it, £350m into the NHS sounds great and it's well worth voting for. But it's a completely flawed argument if you do any research around it.

If you change 'on the face of it' to 'to a brain damaged gerbil' then you've got my agreement, but they're really not 'decent economic reasons on the face of it' are they ?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Politely is it bollocks. You need to read beyond your usual sources.

Whilst spouting his usual populist EU myths, he publicly said so many many times as London Mayor.

He also got majorly caught out post referendum during a meeting with EU Ambassadors which was leaked to the press. His advisors did a good job in twisting the reality, but the truth came out in the end.

Unfortunately in these bonkers times truth and lies become "opinion". Point me to an anti-immigration Boris story, you won't find one that is true.

Boris Johnson is a huge believer in 1) Freedom of movement from the EU and 2) Immigration generally for the benefit of the economy. He sees those in stark economic terms whilst retaining his old school xenophobia and Eurosceptism. You can be both.. In the Boris world of lies and opportunism it's the one thing he is politically consistent on.

I explained this to anti-immigration Brexiteer the other day. They genuinely thought that what Farage wanted would happen, but he has no power and is the sworn enemy of those backing Boris.

Sorry to drop the reality on you, those campaigning for Brexit have very different agendas.

His first immigration policy ?

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...nson-rips-theresa-mays-student-visa-curbs-bid

You've been played.

Interesting.

Stepping back from the Brexit fray, and stepping back a few years, let us not forget that Boris and Cameron are cut from the same Bullingdon cloth. Cameron wrote the right win reactionary election manifesto for Michael Howard. That failed, so he reinvented himself as blue Blair, became leader and won power. Boris committed to brexit at the last minute, reinvented himself into a rabid Brexit dog, became leader and will shortly win power (in a general election) so he thinks.

The tories have always been and will always be about power - absorbing any trope that resonates with what they see as the majority of electors. It is rational - without power you can do nothing.

The problem here is also eternal - how much of your soul do you need to sell to buy sufficient votes to win? Blair sold a fair amount to make new labour the party of government, and this made him vulnerable to resentful old labour types, who have either founced to the tories or Farrage (paradoxially, but the narrative of these voters is entire fiction and is based primarily on a sense that middle class Blair betrayed them) or piled in behind Corbyn.

The tories have found it easier to bend with the wind, since capitalism (unlike socialism) is such a loose and varied 'philosophy'. They have absorbed the notion that the NHS and state schools are a good thing (both being anathema to tories prior to their introduction). They have done this with ease. The only thorn in their side has been Europe. Boris has now plunged into a once-in-a-lifetime war to resolve this, in the only way it can be resolved - over a cliff. Time will tell whether he has made the correct choice (for the conservative party and its ability to win and govern). I suspect he has made the right choice. Sadly.

Everything else, the squawking, the prorogation, the death threats, the outrage, the marches, the threat of violence is all 'noises off'.

 

[A1X]

Bizarre reaction from Gina and Fiona to not linger on the premise that the referendum was binding (camerons leaflet) Out of the CU, SM, ECJ et all. All this vicky pollard claptrap, yeah but no but is so bloody devious.

Cameron's leaflet does not make a referendum binding. There are very, very clear rules about whether a referendum is binding or advisory in the UK constitution, and the EU referendum did not match those criteria. Nor did the 1975 one. Nor the Scottish Independence one.

A referendum is binding if it changes the means for electing MPs to the House of Commons, therefore the AV referendum would have been binding. No other referendum in the UK is binding. Whatever David Cameron tells you (and I'm glad we've finally found someone who believed anything he said, I knew there had to be one somewhere).

 

[zefarelly]

"they're still decent economic reasons on the face of it" i.e. if you read the Daily Mail and don't intend to do a ton of reading around the subject to find out why they're flawed arguments.

And let's be honest, whatever the 2019 Leave campaign wants us to believe, there are a fair portion of Leave voters that voted because of a number on a bus in 2016. On the face of it, £350m into the NHS sounds great and it's well worth voting for. But it's a completely flawed argument if you do any research around it.

Don't forget blue passports. These thing make a difference, especially to retarded rodents.

 

[Triggaaar]

It's then complete open season in a representative democracy where 1) The opposition oppose (clue is in the name)

No, it's not the job of the opposition to just oppose everything for the sake of it. They don't, for example, generally oppose motions to go to war, when our country needs to be united. It is their job to both represent their constituents and their country, and for the last few years the country has needed MPs to work together, and the MPs haven't done so.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

True patriot

a true patriot that can't accept the referendum result, she should join you in Germany
then
regards
DF

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

a true patriot that can't accept the referendum result, she should join you in Germany
then
regards
DF

I’d be happy for her to join me; two true patriots.

 

[Gwylan]

First time I'd seen Gina Miller for any length of time: she's one smart cookie.

When she said "I'm not an MP", I was thinking that she should be, she's much brighter than most of them (although in Mark Francois's case, a sack of spuds would be)

 

[Simster]

a true patriot that can't accept the referendum result, she should join you in Germany
then
regards
DF

A thousands times more of a patriot than Boris Johnson who could have helped deliver a flavour of Brexit in line with the referendum result but has instead chosen to forge ahead with a hard Brexit that has no mandate whatsoever and in the view of parliament will only serve the elite, particularly billionaire speculators who have shorted the pound and those with millions in off-shore tax havens.



Lots of words with more than 4 or 5 letters there so I don't expect you to read it, never mind understand or even look into the argument behind it. You are after all, a proven moron.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Can somebody move this claptrap to the Brexit thread where it can fester in its own slime, and leave us to get on with our lives.

 

[WATFORD zero]

A thousands times more of a patriot than Boris Johnson who could have helped deliver a flavour of Brexit in line with the referendum result but has instead chosen to forge ahead with a hard Brexit that has no mandate whatsoever and in the view of parliament will only serve the elite, particularly billionaire speculators who have shorted the pound and those with millions in off-shore tax havens.



Lots of words with more than 4 or 5 letters there so I don't expect you to read it, never mind understand or even look into the argument behind it. You are after all, a proven moron.

I thought it was particularly telling that his sister, Rachel Johnson completely unprompted, bought up on Radio 4 yesterday, that one of the reasons behind what he is doing could be the pressure he is under from people who stood to make a lot of money out of shorting the pound

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

If you change 'on the face of it' to 'to a brain damaged gerbil' then you've got my agreement, but they're really not 'decent economic reasons on the face of it' are they ?

I feel we're discussing semantics at this stage

 

[BensGrandad]

True patriot

Or a bumbling bust body who admitted that she has been fighting the government for over 10 years to ensure that everything was done in the correct manner, I dont think the result of the referendum came into it...... Has she said how she voted? Or everybody assumes she is a remain.

She is listed as a business woman, in the same way as Tim Martin is, whose business we all know, but what is her line of business?

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Gina Miller absolutely owns the audience with facts.

Yes - she actually knows what she is doing. I thought the Plaid Cymru guy (Adam Price?) was pretty good, too.

 

[happypig]

Some of his party's announcements at conference.
No 1. We'll nick your Private school from under your privileged noses and sell all the assets off.

Ending charitable status and making private schools pay tax.
Sharing legacies from benefactors with all pupils, not just ones from the private school.

No 2. If you own a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. home and it stays empty too long we'll nick it from under your noses and sell it off.

Compulsory purchase of "land-banked" properties held by overseas investors and using them to house british families.

No 3. If you make drugs we'll nick those from under your noses and sell them cheaply to the NHS.

Insulin. The inventor sold the patent for $1. It costs about $5 to produce a vial. American drug companies sell it for $400+

No 4. If you work you'll have your job nicked. Labour would keep free movement after Brexit (that's not Brexit then...Doh!) and let an unchecked mass of immigrants into the country who'll take many jobs away from Brits because they'll be willing to work for much less.

£10 minimum wage and employment legislation.