[Politics] Question Time 01/03/18- This could become feisty

[alfredmizen]

I presume the remit of an MEP is similar to that of an MP in that, once the election is over, they are there to represent all their constituents. As I'm in Hampshire, Nigel Farage is one of my MEPs too, and if he is not attending committees, he has no hope of representing my views on anything at all.

Question Time last night showed him up for what he is - a thug, a bully and a loudmouth, a master of the soundbite. Ken Clarke might be a windbag, but he is a windbag who talks a hell of a lot more sense than Farage because he is capable of thinking things through and recognising how complicated the whole business of extracting ourselves from the European Union is. Whether you share Ken Clarke's view on Europe or not, that is not an anti-BREXIT stance, it is a cold hard fact.

a thug and a bully ? do me a favour and man up.a bit princess , id love to see your reaction if you ever had to deal with real thugs and bullies .

 

[cunning fergus]

I presume the remit of an MEP is similar to that of an MP in that, once the election is over, they are there to represent all their constituents. As I'm in Hampshire, Nigel Farage is one of my MEPs too, and if he is not attending committees, he has no hope of representing my views on anything at all.

Question Time last night showed him up for what he is - a thug, a bully and a loudmouth, a master of the soundbite. Ken Clarke might be a windbag, but he is a windbag who talks a hell of a lot more sense than Farage because he is capable of thinking things through and recognising how complicated the whole business of extracting ourselves from the European Union is. Whether you share Ken Clarke's view on Europe or not, that is not an anti-BREXIT stance, it is a cold hard fact.

An elected representative should represent the interest of their constituents within the context of the political objectives on which they were elected.

In NI, when a SF MP is elected how will the interests of their unionist constituents be served when their MP is diametrically opposed to the very concept of NI being part of the U.K. This democratic equation has been at play for decades, not a peep about it. It is a matter of fact that despite never entering parliament SF MPs take their salaries and full expenses.

In the context of MEPs think yourself lucky, Farage can represent the interests of those who are diametrically opposed to the concept of the EU, and the U.K’s membership, while other MEPs in the same constituency will also have been “elected” so you are not losing out on any rights or representation in the EU Parliament.

So for the pro EU brigade where’s the beef? In comparison to unionists in SF constituencies you are laughing.

For the record I am not a cheerleader for Farage or UKIP, but I do respect his ideological consistency, a rare commodity in contemporary politics. I don’t think he is beyond criticism for his tactics, but those who whine on and on about it should place his career into context.

He has not pathologically lied to the British people to take the country into a war which has lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and displacing millions of people in the most volatile part of the world. Compared to Blair Farage is a saint, and yet people seem to be much more forgiving about Blair because he says things they agree with. Given his pro EU credentials there is a reason he was anonymous in the referendum campaign.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

a thug and a bully ? do me a favour and man up.a bit princess , id love to see your reaction if you ever had to deal with real thugs and bullies .

A bit princess? Thanks a bunch. He's very good at shouting the loudest and talking over everyone else. That's what I meant. A sensible definition of the word "bully" (and bullying" can be fairly wide.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

An elected representative should represent the interest of their constituents within the context of the political objectives on which they were elected.

In NI, when a SF MP is elected how will the interests of their unionist constituents be served when their MP is diametrically opposed to the very concept of NI being part of the U.K. This democratic equation has been at play for decades, not a peep about it. It is a matter of fact that despite never entering parliament SF MPs take their salaries and full expenses.

In the context of MEPs think yourself lucky, Farage can represent the interests of those who are diametrically opposed to the concept of the EU, and the U.K’s membership, while other MEPs in the same constituency will also have been “elected” so you are not losing out on any rights or representation in the EU Parliament.

So for the pro EU brigade where’s the beef? In comparison to unionists in SF constituencies you are laughing.

For the record I am not a cheerleader for Farage or UKIP, but I do respect his ideological consistency, a rare commodity in contemporary politics. I don’t think he is beyond criticism for his tactics, but those who whine on and on about it should place his career into context.

He has not pathologically lied to the British people to take the country into a war which has lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and displacing millions of people in the most volatile part of the world. Compared to Blair Farage is a saint, and yet people seem to be much more forgiving about Blair because he says things they agree with. Given his pro EU credentials there is a reason he was anonymous in the referendum campaign.

Fair enough for the most part, but I would profoundly disagree with your first sentence, particulary over the words "within the context of the political objectives etc etc."

For an MP, at least, he or she is there to represent all their constituents. So that would mean for example that someone elected on a racist ticket should still represent fully any of the immigrant population or whoever he or she might have been demonising in the first place. If they did not, they would not be operating properly and ethically as an MP. I appreciate the approach for n MEP might be different, because one is represented by a number of (7?) people.

In terms of SinnFein, I am not arguing about that. I take your point.

 

[GT49er]

In about 100 years time, when someone writes a history of the UK in the 21st century (assuming there is still someone around to write it - and can write) I would guess that Farage and UKIP would have a chapter of their own, in much the same way that the Chartists or the Corn Law protesters had in the 19th century. As for the others on QT, perhaps Ken Clarke might get a paragraph. You don't need to be a royal or an MP to be influential but you do need to have done something to achieve change - and Farage has certainly done this. No matter how this ends for him (or us), he will always be seen as the person that got us Brexit.

Absolutely this. Like the outcome or not, Farage has been incredibly influential. It's amazing that some people can't understand this simple fact (objective too, not subjective). They seem to cling to the fantastic belief that because they hate him, he cannot possibly have been influential!

 

[GT49er]

No that's subjective too.

You don't know what would have happened if Farage didn't exisit, you subjectively think that "we almost certainly wouldn't have even had a referendum". You are giving your opinion, nothing objective about that.

You are seriously in denial that he was influential? Wow.....just wow!

 

[Hampster Gull]

In about 100 years time, when someone writes a history of the UK in the 21st century (assuming there is still someone around to write it - and can write) I would guess that Farage and UKIP would have a chapter of their own, in much the same way that the Chartists or the Corn Law protesters had in the 19th century. As for the others on QT, perhaps Ken Clarke might get a paragraph. You don't need to be a royal or an MP to be influential but you do need to have done something to achieve change - and Farage has certainly done this. No matter how this ends for him (or us), he will always be seen as the person that got us Brexit.

In the context of 100 years, Farage has done nothing. Let’s see what happens in the coming years

 

[cunning fergus]

Fair enough for the most part, but I would profoundly disagree with your first sentence, particulary over the words "within the context of the political objectives etc etc."

For an MP, at least, he or she is there to represent all their constituents. So that would mean for example that someone elected on a racist ticket should still represent fully any of the immigrant population or whoever he or she might have been demonising in the first place. If they did not, they would not be operating properly and ethically as an MP. I appreciate the approach for n MEP might be different, because one is represented by a number of (7?) people.

In terms of SinnFein, I am not arguing about that. I take your point.

This is excellent progress, and no personal attack either.....I appreciate it, thanks.

Have to say I can’t buy your “profound” disagreement, I can appreciate it’s a strong personal view, however (taking your example) when the BNP have been elected to office (as local councillors) I am pretty sure they did not seek to represent constiuents that did not support their political objectives. Sure it’s not ethical etc. but that would be to ignore the reality on the ground.

But that is also to deal with the matter at the margins, in the ordinary course you are right, MPs would support their constituents regardless of political persuasion, and that would be because (say) a planning application on a green field site would generate issues that would not typically cut across the broader political objectives of the party they represent.

The political objectives of UKIP are clearly to remove the UK from the EU, for a pro EU constituent to take umbrage that they are not doing the bidding of the EU, or operating as pro EU MEPs do is to ignore the political objectives of UKIP. Those that do are niave at best and politically illiterate at worst, and why the reference to SF is an entirely reasonable point to make.

Happy Honecker.

 

[Triggaaar]

You've used the word 'naive' about Leavers, and I think you've hit the nail on the head.

I was paraphrasing you

Stop posturing

tell me how we can leave the EU and still have a frictionless Irish border.

Tell me exactly what you think the issues are regarding the Irish border, and I'll tell you what I think we can do.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I was paraphrasing you


Tell me exactly what you think the issues are regarding the Irish border, and I'll tell you what I think we can do.

Do I really need to spell out the Irish issues? Haven't they been publicised enough?

 

[clapham_gull]

a thug and a bully ? do me a favour and man up.a bit princess , id love to see your reaction if you ever had to deal with real thugs and bullies .

Luckily most of us don't move in such circles.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

This is excellent progress, and no personal attack either.....I appreciate it, thanks.

Have to say I can’t buy your “profound” disagreement, I can appreciate it’s a strong personal view, however (taking your example) when the BNP have been elected to office (as local councillors) I am pretty sure they did not seek to represent constiuents that did not support their political objectives. Sure it’s not ethical etc. but that would be to ignore the reality on the ground.

But that is also to deal with the matter at the margins, in the ordinary course you are right, MPs would support their constituents regardless of political persuasion, and that would be because (say) a planning application on a green field site would generate issues that would not typically cut across the broader political objectives of the party they represent.

The political objectives of UKIP are clearly to remove the UK from the EU, for a pro EU constituent to take umbrage that they are not doing the bidding of the EU, or operating as pro EU MEPs do is to ignore the political objectives of UKIP. Those that do are niave at best and politically illiterate at worst, and why the reference to SF is an entirely reasonable point to make.

Happy Honecker.

I don't major on personal attacks.

As for the "who an MP represents", they are expected to represent all their constituents. Obviously in terms of something like BREXIT, they will have constituents with widely differing views so that is impossible, but if an individual comes to them with a personal matter about which they need help, then the MP has a duty to help them. In my experience they do this admirably, going to battle for people with whom they have nothing in common and might even be political opponents.

I am not naïve enough to think it is not possible that an MP would refuse to help someone for some reason, such as a BNP MP (of which there aren't any anyway) refusing to help a constituent on the basis of the colour of his or her skin, they would not have a leg to stand on. If noting else, the full force of our discrimination laws should be brought down on them.

But I would be the first to agree that his is the theory, and that the reality could be different.

 

[Gwylan]

In the context of 100 years, Farage has done nothing. Let’s see what happens in the coming years

Quite. He was so influential that he wasn't even part of the official leave campaign. A leader of a minor party who created a splash for a couple of years only to vanish into political obscurity - an English Pierre Poujade

 

[Hampster Gull]

Quite. He was so influential that he wasn't even part of the official leave campaign. A leader of a minor party who created a splash for a couple of years only to vanish into political obscurity - an English Pierre Poujade

Many Brextremists I’m here who argued many a time that UKIP were not a minor party of course. They were of course and rowed the wave post the financial crisis of anti liberalism. As I say, the have achieved nothing yet in context of 100 years

 

[cunning fergus]

I don't major on personal attacks.

As for the "who an MP represents", they are expected to represent all their constituents. Obviously in terms of something like BREXIT, they will have constituents with widely differing views so that is impossible, but if an individual comes to them with a personal matter about which they need help, then the MP has a duty to help them. In my experience they do this admirably, going to battle for people with whom they have nothing in common and might even be political opponents.

I am not naïve enough to think it is not possible that an MP would refuse to help someone for some reason, such as a BNP MP (of which there aren't any anyway) refusing to help a constituent on the basis of the colour of his or her skin, they would not have a leg to stand on. If noting else, the full force of our discrimination laws should be brought down on them.

But I would be the first to agree that his is the theory, and that the reality could be different.

This is brilliant, we are essentially in agreement.

No queston that most day-to-day constituency matters should be dealt with by MPs, however there are certain macro political issues like abortion, Fox-hunting and EU membership where political positions will be taken by MPs that will polarise some of their consistent, most likely a minority.

Nothing controversial, so strange that some cannot understand this very basic dynamic in political discourse.

I made reference to elected BNP councillors, I know there has never been an MP.

 

[portslade seagull]

Back in June 2016 where was the 'Leave' solution for the INEVITABLE problem of border check between Northern and Southern Ireland? You've used the word 'naive' about Leavers, and I think you've hit the nail on the head. Obvious problem, Leave in denial, chickens INEVITABLY coming home to roost now.

Stop posturing and tell me how we can leave the EU and still have a frictionless Irish border.

Be honest were you even thinking about this in 2016. It's only gained momentum as its become the latest twist by remainers in the game to derail leaving the EU. All other attempts have failed as I expect this one will as well. Then it will be onto the next derailment target whatever it maybe

 

[Pavilionaire]

Be honest were you even thinking about this in 2016. It's only gained momentum as its become the latest twist by remainers in the game to derail leaving the EU. All other attempts have failed as I expect this one will as well. Then it will be onto the next derailment target whatever it maybe

Too right I was, it was obviously going to be a massive problem for anyone who cared to look. The UK, peace in Northern Ireland and peace in Europe have all been taken for granted - big mistake, big misjudgement.