[Politics] Protests/rioting in lots of places

[Machiavelli]

https://justice.org.uk/counter-terrorism-human-rights/#:~:text=In%20the%20UK%2C%20the%20legal,endangers%20a%20person's%20life

Sounds quite a lot like it to me. Does terrorism need to be perpetrated by brown-skinned people before we call it that and send in the army?

No, absolutely it doesn't, but you're actually making my point for me: the legal definition of terrorism has been significantly expanded in 21C such that it captures too much. Legal definitions are never very good either because they're usually influenced by reactive politicians.
This is rioting and intimidation, racially-motivated and, as I originally indicated, there are several other crimes that are being committed, eg arson.

In terms of terrorism, during 21C, most of it has been perpetrated by religious fundamentalists and the far right. Thankfully, apart from a few isolated pockets in the developing world, the left has abandoned terrorism as a tactic, following on from a high watermark in the 1970s. Not that this will be accepted by most on here but, if you disagree, you can find some robust stats to demonstrate otherwise.

 

[Lenny Rider]

What alternative narrative do you think should be given more prominence?

Personally I think too much is being made of Yaxley-Lennon, he's surely not that intelligent to be organising and co-ordinating all this, from a sunbed in Paphos to boot, turning him into almost a Right Wing 'martyr' is going to all strengthen the resolve of the far right.

I actually found Farage's 90 sec you tube video over the weekend far more unhelpful given the current situation, and he's an elected official!

 

[Baldseagull]

You do realise that it is almost impossible for a genuine asylum-seeker to arrive here legally?

If they claim asylum, they have arrived legally, even if that claim is subsequently denied. It would only be illegal if they arrived again having been refused and removed already, used false documents, or lied about who they are or where they are from.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

If they claim asylum, they have arrived legally, even if that claim is subsequently denied. It would only be illegal if they arrived again having been refused and removed already, used false documents, or lied about who they are or where they are from.

Funnily enough, the one person who was arrested for being an illegal immigrant, was Yaxley-Lennon, who used a false passport to try and enter the States. He couldn’t use his own due to previous convictions.

 

[el punal]

I have just donated blood here in Warwick. This is what society is about. There were an Asian couple there with two of their offspring (who I would say are early 20s). Family trip. I was in a chair next to a black bloke about my age and the other side of me was a c55 year old white middle class (based on accent) woman.

When people get involved in car accidents and need blood I am guessing they don’t give a shit where the blood keeping them alive came from.

I worked with a bloke who was a bit outspoken (gobby) and a wind up merchant to boot. Add to that a racist as well - he liked to throw out racist quotes and jokes. On one occasion he overstepped the mark and stated how he hated ———— (insert any ethnic group you can think of). I challenged him and asked what if his children were in a car crash and seriously injured, and that the first medic to attend happened to be black and that an Asian doctor was also at the scene. Would he then tell both to f*** off because he hated non-white people?
His answer was typical - a blustering “Yeah, well, that’s different.” The sort of hot air shit that you would except from a complete knobhead.

 

[el punal]

Funnily enough, the one person who was arrested for being an illegal immigrant, was Yaxley-Lennon, who used a false passport to try and enter the States. He couldn’t use his own due to previous convictions.

Oh, the irony.

 

[Machiavelli]

The idea that you can educate the working class into being pro mass immigration is so laughably absurd and arrogant that I can't really think of a appropriate way to respond to it. It's certainly indicative of the attitude from the liberal middle class that has led us to this point.

Immigration policy and the endless supply of cheap labour it has provided has allowed successive governments to essentially abandon large sections of the (mostly) white working class. If you sat all these oafs down in a classroom and educated them on the consequences that mass immigration has had on their lives then most of them would probably be further entrenched in their views.

Attacking hotels and looting is deeply wrong. Those responsible should see the inside of a cell for a few years. Some of them are undoubtedly acting out of bigotry. But they are not wrong to want less immigration. It simply isn't in their own interests, no matter how much those who have economically benefited from it tell them otherwise.

I see things very differently, mostly based around two issues:

First, inequality has been allowed to let rip for 45 years. It will only be addressed properly at the global level. It is this that has led to the abandonment of the working class. Are you seriously indicting immigration for the closure of the mines and the failure to rebuild those communities in its aftermath?

Second, in Europe (Japan also) there are sizeable demographic shifts that have been ongoing for decades which has led to an increase in the elderly non-working population. They need a substantial working population to cater for their needs. Ergo, immigration. I can only see three alternatives to immigration to address this.

One is that you force/encourage the labour force to take on new/different careers (all of which require training) including social work, healthcare and teaching.
Two is that you introduce requirements to increase the birth rate.
Three is that you withdraw care for the elderly (as there's insufficient labour to perform it).

You'll need to tell me if there are any other alternatives to this and, if not, which of these that you'd want to bring in.

 

[chickens]

I see Elon Musk has been pouring fuel onto the flames:

Elon Musk hits back at Sir Keir Starmer after 'civil war' comments dismissed

Musk, the billionaire owner of X, made his original comments on the social media platform below a video of rioters setting off fireworks at police.

news.sky.com

Can we ban Twitter yet?

 

[Jim in the West]

If they claim asylum, they have arrived legally, even if that claim is subsequently denied. It would only be illegal if they arrived again having been refused and removed already, used false documents, or lied about who they are or where they are from.

I think that's slightly wrong - once they claim asylum they have the right for that claim to be heard. However, if they have travelled through a "safe third country" they are deemed not to have arrived here legally. Hence, pretty much the only way an asylum-seeker can legally get here is to fly directly to the UK. There are no direct flights from places like Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, etc.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Thanks for acknowledging those aren’t my views. You’re of course correct. I voted Lib dem tactically as I could not vote for another Tory government.

And I couldn’t agree with your points more! The riots are awful, the reactions from counter groups awful, media coverage awful, politicians awful. There’s genuinely not one positive.

I just wanted our Prime Ministers speech and general reaction to be better and to stop fuelling the fire. Even something simple “we can have a conversation about your concerns but these riots are not the way”. Anything along those lines just to try and stop this embarrassment to our country. With each speech he is more and more scathing. I know he’s right, you know he’s right, almost all of us on here know he’s right. But he’s only making that small percentage of the country more angry and the riots will only become more constant and worse, IMO.

My other point is around the policing of this whole thing and the equality of that. But that’s not just with regards to the riots that the police in general over the last few years. Particularly the Met. But I think I’ve covered this in previous posts and don’t want this thread to keep going in circles.

I understand all your points.

My feeling about the PM signaling any concession or note of acknowledgement of a grievance is that is a very slippery slope. Who is to blame and whose job is it to fix it?

I might, in a few days, were I Starmer, wonder aloud 'what is it the last government has done to create all this mess?' and 'we will need to think long and hard about how to deal with this'.....but even I can't stoop to blaming the Tories for this, other than it has festered under their watch. The Tories gave these people largely what the wanted - Brexit and an end to illegal immigration. I cannot blame Tories for the rioting and am pleased that by and large nobody is. I blame the rioters. Full stop.

And illegal immigration is largely irrelevant here. Most of those rioting have probably never met a black person. They are taking offense on behalf of others (without even knowing who these others are, or what the offense is all about).

But...but....I have always believed in generosity, education, reassurance. Part of me wants to sit down with these 'footy lad' types (and their dads) and ask them what it is that would make their lives better.

Another part of me thinks that most of those on the street would not be interested in a chat with me, Starmer, the King, or the lord Jesus Christ himself. Maybe I'm wrong. But that's how it feels.

Also, my view is society has always had people keen to scapegoat, to loot, to attack authority. In the 1890s Piccadilly was a no go area for 'toffs' because disaffected working class were likely to attack them. Back then the fear was communism. Fascism hadn't yet been invented. Just people (mostly men) acting up.

And wrecking and other acts of animalism towards 'the other' have always been commonplace. In Faversham, boats were attacked by pirates (locals) dragged up the creek and wrecked. In Hartlepool famously (albeit apocryphally) the wreckers captured a French ship, with all hands lost, found the ship's monkey, and hanged it as a 'traitor'.

Basically, left to their own devices, young (and not so young) men will slip into barbarism. This was elegantly parodied in Golding's 'Lord of the flies'.

This rioting is a million miles away from the Jarrow marches, working men desperate to find reasonable employment.

If there is genuinely a grievance, these people need to find a plausible spokesman. Not Farage. Not Andrew Tate. Not Yaxley Lennon. Not Lawrence cuntface. A credible advocate.

The fact that none appears to exist tells its own tale.

All the best - it would be interesting to spend a drunken afternoon discussing the way of the world with you. Maybe when it gets a bit cooler.

 

[Baldseagull]

Cried in court....what a ****.

To be fair, it must be quite distressing to realise how much shit he has dropped himself in.

 

[nevergoagain]

I would refer the right honourable gentleman to my very first response on this subject

I give up, I think you are being deliberately stupid. (Pointless emoji)

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I see Elon Musk has been pouring fuel onto the flames:

Elon Musk hits back at Sir Keir Starmer after 'civil war' comments dismissed

Musk, the billionaire owner of X, made his original comments on the social media platform below a video of rioters setting off fireworks at police.

news.sky.com

Can we ban Twitter yet?

Not sure about banning it.

Changing the law to regard them as the publishers of the content is worthy of consideration

 

[Lenny Rider]

Do we have any up to date figures of how many people we have in the UK currently in the asylum process?

I read the other week that Turkey has 22.5million refugees as of last month, the largest figure in the world, which would kind of dwarf our levels. but do the born and bred Turks ever riot about immigration?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I’m on a few mailing lists associated with my work with asylum seekers. The info is that far right shit-stirrers are posting details of immigration support centres, charities, etc, on SM, with a view to targeting them in Wednesday evening.

Don’t tell me there are still some fools who believed the idiotic Queen Natalie? Brighton (Royal) Pavilion is not a mosque.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Do we have any up to date figures of how many people we have in the UK currently in the asylum process?

I read the other week that Turkey has 22.5million refugees as of last month, the largest figure in the world, which would kind of dwarf our levels. but do the born and bred Turks ever riot about immigration?

Turkey has 80% of the world’s refugees.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I worked with a bloke who was a bit outspoken (gobby) and a wind up merchant to boot. Add to that a racist as well - he liked to throw out racist quotes and jokes. On one occasion he overstepped the mark and stated how he hated ———— (insert any ethnic group you can think of). I challenged him and asked what if his children were in a car crash and seriously injured, and that the first medic to attend happened to be black and that an Asian doctor was also at the scene. Would he then tell both to f*** off because he hated non-white people?
His answer was typical - a blustering “Yeah, well, that’s different.” The sort of hot air shit that you would except from a complete knobhead.

Pure Alf Garnett.

This was written in the 1960s as a parody.

• Alf Garnett: Well, I mean, see if we go into Europe...
• Else Garnett: I thought we was in Europe. I mean, I thought we always have been.
• Alf Garnett: I know that, yer silly moo. I'm not talking about that aspect am I? I'm talking about the Common Market aspect of the going into Europe.
• Alf Garnett: Old Enoch's against it, in't 'e, eh? He don't want no more bloody foreigners over here. We got enough bloody foreigners here as it is. Bloody country's swarming with Eities and Krauts and Froggies and Spagnollies and Brussel Sprouts. All coming over here and taking our jobs off of us, aren't they?
• Else Garnett: Well, we can go over there and take the jobs off of them.
• Alf Garnett: I don't want to go over there, do I?
• Else Garnett: Wish you would.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

To be fair, it must be quite distressing to realise how much shit he has dropped himself in.

I'd like to see him given a very light sentence. Maybe a token community order.

In return for him giving up all the details of everyone else he conspired with online and acting as a witness against them in all their cases

 

[Bakero]

I think (have witnessed but cannot prove) that new citizens not being able to speak the native language is always a bone of contention in all nations. I suggest part of the citizenship test is the ability to speak the native language.
Applies equally to someone settling in the Uk as a Brit living in say Spain.

Not sure if anyone has clarified this already but to get citizenship or settled status in the UK you need to prove you have a B1 level of English (B1 basically means you can communicate in everyday situations when speaking about familiar topics). For Spanish citizenship you need A2 level, which is a step below B1.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't think the police dog was overly-chuffed either, to be fair.

Another miscreant was floored by a police dog in Rotherham. I believe the dog’s jabs are all up to date.