[Other Sport] Protester climbs onto crucible snooker table

[Bold Seagull]

So much conflation here. It is where the entire debate falls down.

Intensive crop farming has an enormous detrimental effect on the environment, but this doesn’t fit in with the narrative. The protestors want everyone to become vegan, not because of environmental issues, but because they find people eating meat abhorrent. Then they conflate the two issues, ignoring other massive elements contributing towards climate change which aren’t part of their agenda.

Why doesn't it fit with the narrative?

Animals used for food and dairy take up nearly 80% of global agricultural land. Over 36% of all grown crops go into animal feed, only 55% is for human consumption (the rest for bio fuels etc). If everyone went vegan as an example, then agricultural land would shrink by 75%.

 

[Deleted member 37369]

These “social media” supporters disappear faster than a Magnum bar on the surface of the sun. Anyone can gain a huge social media following if appealing to fringe loons; QAnon, Alex Jones… it doesn’t represent support from the silent majority.

Shouting loudly does not equal support. Support is winning hearts and minds. Those who aren’t complaining are satisfied. It’s the first rule of activism.

You said it much better than my comment ... which was trying to say the same thing

 

[jcdenton08]

Why doesn't it fit with the narrative?

Animals used for food and dairy take up nearly 80% of global agricultural land. Over 36% of all grown crops go into animal feed, only 55% is for human consumption (the rest for bio fuels etc). If everyone went vegan as an example, then agricultural land would shrink by 75%.

Everyone in the rich West, you mean? What about millions of people worldwide who live on land which is perfect for animal grazing, but not fertile for growing of crops? **** them, basically?

This is all so pointed and close to home, viewing everything through such a narrow lens of the “enlightened” West. Our standard of living and choices are very different to most of the rest of the world.

It’s preachy and has nothing to do with environmental issues. As the one guy who replied 5 times to me summed up a few pages ago, it’s the idea of eating meat that people don’t like. Absolutely nothing to do with environmental issues.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Everyone in the rich West, you mean? What about millions of people worldwide who live on land which is perfect for animal grazing, but not fertile for growing of crops? **** them, basically?

This is all so pointed and close to home, viewing everything through such a narrow lens of the “enlightened” West. Our standard of living and choices are very different to most of the rest of the world.

It’s preachy and has nothing to do with environmental issues. As the one guy who replied 5 times to me summed up a few pages ago, it’s the idea of eating meat that people don’t like. Absolutely nothing to do with environmental issues.

How do they feed the grazing animals? Grains feed most of Africa, India is largely lentils, beans, peas etc. What millions of people who are only reliant on meet are you referring to?

You made a point that if we all went vegan there would be more intensive crop growing - there wouldn't.

It might be preachy to say the entire planet needs to be vegan, it's not preachy to suggest we need to consume less meat. With a growing planet population, how intensive animal farming is, it's just simple maths.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

GB can include me in his 'most people' comment

Congratulations

 

[Bold Seagull]

...

 

[jcdenton08]

How do they feed the grazing animals? Grains feed most of Africa, India is largely lentils, beans, peas etc. What millions of people who are only reliant on meet are you referring to?

You made a point that if we all went vegan there would be more intensive crop growing - there wouldn't.

It might be preachy to say the entire planet needs to be vegan, it's not preachy to suggest we need to consume less meat. With a growing planet population, how intensive animal farming is, it's just simple maths.

This is exactly what are they saying.

 

[Bold Seagull]

This is exactly what are they saying.

Are we not having a discussion about what you have said?

 

[WATFORD zero]

This is exactly what are they saying.

The vast majority of people I know (note: Unlike others, I'm not claiming the vast majority) understand the simple fact that cutting back meat and dairy consumption would make a major contribution to helping the environment, and would be good for my health. They certainly haven't told me that I should be vegan

And now I have contributed to this thread lasting longer than the bloody snooker

 

[jcdenton08]

How do they feed the grazing animals? Grains feed most of Africa, India is largely lentils, beans, peas etc. What millions of people who are only reliant on meet are you referring to?

You made a point that if we all went vegan there would be more intensive crop growing - there wouldn't.

It might be preachy to say the entire planet needs to be vegan, it's not preachy to suggest we need to consume less meat. With a growing planet population, how intensive animal farming is, it's just simple maths.

Around one third of land used for grazing can be used for crop growth. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013)

Huge swathes of Africa and Asia have grass for feed, in land which cannot be cultivated for crop growth due to weather, infertile land or lack of expertise.

If the world were to go vegan, there would not be sufficient crops grown without intensive industrial farming, which would contribute hugely to climate change in a similar or larger scale.

In short, we would be looking at millions of deaths from starvation and probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in human existence.

 

[jcdenton08]

Around one third of land used for grazing can be used for crop growth. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013)

Huge swathes of Africa and Asia have grass for feed, in land which cannot be cultivated for crop growth due to weather, infertile land or lack of expertise.

If the world were to go vegan, there would not be sufficient crops grown without intensive industrial farming, which would contribute hugely to climate change in a similar or larger scale.

In short, we would be looking at millions of deaths from starvation and probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in human existence.

Additionally, the massive culling and/or starvation of animal species who would serve no purpose. Throw open the gates… then what? You’ve got billions of starving animals. Sanctuaries would only do so much and prevent extinction.

Global veganism would cause the biggest single loss of human and animal life since the ice age.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Around one third of land used for grazing can be used for crop growth. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013)

Huge swathes of Africa and Asia have grass for feed, in land which cannot be cultivated for crop growth due to weather, infertile land or lack of expertise.

If the world were to go vegan, there would not be sufficient crops grown without intensive industrial farming, which would contribute hugely to climate change in a similar or larger scale.

In short, we would be looking at millions of deaths from starvation and probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in human existence.

That paper doesn't even reflect what you're saying. Have you even read it, or did Google just throw it up for you and you posted it?

I mean, I don't know where to start, African and Asian diets are already low meat consumers, you appear to be missing that fact, they already don't rely on meat for their diets.

The hyperbole you've got going on here is incredible, almost....preachy.

 

[Goldstone Guy]

Some good news to report.

You might think it's good news, but that says a lot about you as a person. I think it undermines the argument of those who say the protestors are doing what they're doing as an "ego trip" or just want to cause trouble.

 

[jcdenton08]

Marcus Decker, one of the criminals involved, is a German citizen so will presumably be deported after completion of his sentence on license.


Morgan Trowland, the other one, has numerous priors. He is from New Zealand and also likely will be deported. (https://extinctionrebellion.uk/2021/03/31/morgan-trowland-36-civil-engineer-from-east-london/)

“Morgan, originally from New Zealand and a member of the Tree of Life affinity group, was arrested under Section 14 of the Public Order Act during the 2019 April Rebellion. He was tried on 31st October 2019 at City of London Magistrates’ Court, found guilty and given a six month conditional discharge and £500 court costs.

He was arrested again for the Bow concrete action in August 2020 and charged with Aggrevated Trespass but his case was dismissed. He was arrested a third time in September 2020 for the Murdoch printworks action, for which he designed two giant bamboo structures used during the blockade. He was charged with Obstruction of the Highway and his trial is scheduled for May 2021.”

 

[Goldstone Guy]

In a way that's my point. People care on a micro level and will change individual behaviour to suit, but on a macro level they want government to be about more than a single issue (or we'd have a Green government now).

This is despite Greenpeace, Extinction Rebellion, Just Stop Oil, Greta Thunberg, naked bike rides, non stop green agendas at festivals like Glastonbury going back well over a decade and more.

People want their government to do more than set a green agenda. That may sound nuts but most of us live in the now, and the majority are happy to accept small changes but not to spend their lives wearing a hair shirt just so their kids can, erm, spend their lives wearing a hair shirt. Humans like fun, they like risk, they like the taste of meat, they like travel. I couldn't live my life without those things and don't intend to in the future. I also don't vote Tory.

I agree with some of what you're saying. It is up to people to vote Green. Personally I think the scaling up of protests is raising awareness of envionmental issues and is polarising people. Yes, lots of people don't like it and are turning more against the protestors/Green Party/environmental issues, but I think they'll all be people who wouldn't vote Green anyway. Others will be getting more aware of the issues and more angry about the lack of any meaningful action to reduce CO2 emissions (we need a lot more than some wind turbines at Rampion). For a political party or to achieve action in general, it must be better to have half the population hating you and half wanting to vote for you, rather than everyone being indifferent towards you, so that no one votes for you (which the Tories are aware of I suspect).

 

[Algernon]

I think it undermines the argument of those who say the protestors are doing what they're doing as an "ego trip" or just want to cause trouble.

No it doesn't.
I think they do it to look good amongst the other environmental warriors, to see their name in lights as this year's green martyrs.
Only this time it's bitten them in the arse and they've been banged up.
I do expect them to appeal and some lily livered, lefty leaning, arty-farty, namby-pamby, hoity-toity, wishy-washy, lardy-dardy, sun-dried tomato eating, decaffeinated judge will reduce their sentences to 4 weeks on retreat in a kibbutz.

 

[beorhthelm]

Why doesn't it fit with the narrative?

Animals used for food and dairy take up nearly 80% of global agricultural land. Over 36% of all grown crops go into animal feed, only 55% is for human consumption (the rest for bio fuels etc). If everyone went vegan as an example, then agricultural land would shrink by 75%.

we did this in another thread - those numbers are bogus, its about 80% of soy and ~30% of grain, which are minority % of total crops food, that are used for animal feed. land use is mostly vast tracts of land with some transient grazing, no use for anything else. its been hijacked by those who are anti-meat and no one checks the claims.

(start from https://www.fao.org/3/cb4477en/online/cb4477en.html#chapter-2_1. note how grains total are only 32%, how can 36% of crops be going to animals unless we're feeding them sugar, veg and fruit?)

 

[Bold Seagull]

we did this in another thread - those numbers are bogus, its about 80% of soy and ~30% of grain, which are minority % of total crops food, that are used for animal feed. land use is mostly vast tracts of land with some transient grazing, no use for anything else. its been hijacked by those who are anti-meat and no one checks the claims.

You’ll have to explain that better…

 

[worthingseagull123]

You might think it's good news, but that says a lot about you as a person. I think it undermines the argument of those who say the protestors are doing what they're doing as an "ego trip" or just want to cause trouble.

It may well be an ego trip.

They probably weren’t aware of the consequences of their stunt.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I’m pretty sure they’ll appeal.
This vicar got a fraction of their sentence.