Primary schools today.

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What really annoys me <snip>
I've always believed that the main problem in education today is useless parents far more than 'bad teachers'.

Going the same way in universities too; if Tarquin or Jocasta don't get a good degree (because they've not attended classes or done any of the required reading for three years), then mummy and daddy blame the university or the Lecturers, and demand their money back, rather than giving their spoilt brats a bollocking!

All sadly symptomatic of a society in which pupils/students/parents are told they are customers/consumers, and so don't have to take any responsibility.

Where I work (one of the top five unis) we are under no pressure from parents. However we have the tyrrany of the National Student Survey. Students are ask questions like 'did your personal tutor make contact with you on a regular basis'. In final year the students, who have met us formally many times in the first 2 years, according to our policy, are asked to contact us and 'drive' the process now they are in final year. So they reply in the survey 'no'. We then have to change our process so we now hound the students and do loads of paperwork to prove we have had regular meetings with these adults (as they are) who are primarily focused on getting their work done. Waste of everyone's time. I have had the odd parent contact me, but more about getting advice on what text book to buy their kid as a present.

Dreadful story, by the way.

 

[Peteinblack]

Where I work (one of the top five unis) we are under no pressure from parents. However we have the tyrrany of the National Student Survey. Students are ask questions like 'did your personal tutor make contact with you on a regular basis'. In final year the students, who have met us formally many times in the first 2 years, according to our policy, are asked to contact us and 'drive' the process now they are in final year. So they reply in the survey 'no'. We then have to change our process so we now hound the students and do loads of paperwork to prove we have had regular meetings with these adults (as they are) who are primarily focused on getting their work done. Waste of everyone's time. I have had the odd parent contact me, but more about getting advice on what text book to buy their kid as a present.

Dreadful story, by the way.

Agree with you about the nonsense of the NSS. Where I work, academics are given a target, by university managers, for the % of students who must respond to the NSS, yet whether students choose to respond is up to them, and so beyond our control.

Yet if 'not enough' students complete the NSS, academic staff are bollocked.

Two years ago, under instructions from university managers, we repeatedly told students that they must complete the NSS survey; the students then complained that we were bullying and harassing them, and that they didn't care about the NSS! Some of them then did complete the NSS, and gave us a bad rating as revenge for being 'bullied' into completing it in the first place.

It's just another tick-box exercise, and a stick for management and politicians to beat us with.

 

[alfredmizen]

I think the short answer is funding. Pupil premium had to be justified within a school budget as showing improvement to children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Often it is a case of specialised help or some 1 to 1 tuition. Some kids do just need a bit more help than in a typical class environment. Of course it is a bit more complex than that, but funding is a crucial factor.

Genuinely not picking a fight here , but how will extra funding combat the lack of interest from some parents in less well off areas , the lack of interest which manifests itself in the behaviour of the kids disrupting classes etc , when i agreed with you about the affluence of an area being a factor it was more to do with affluence=encouragement and interest from parents.

 

[BigGully]

Genuinely not picking a fight here , but how will extra funding combat the lack of interest from some parents in less well off areas , the lack of interest which manifests itself in the behaviour of the kids disrupting classes etc , when i agreed with you about the affluence of an area being a factor it was more to do with affluence=encouragement and interest from parents.

I was going to post the same thing, I can assure you funding has nothing to do with it, except within the context where dysfunctionality is too easily rewarded.

There needs to be more challenge and sanction rather than rewarding their conduct by giving them stuff, even perhaps some vague stigma to prompt some reasonable and responsible behaviour might be better, rather than ushering them in to the schools conference room where an overly willing 'Parent Support Worker' will offer more support, advice and further opportunities to access services and/or funding, there is never any incentive to act in a reasonable way its reward, reward reward ......

 

[Bold Seagull]

Genuinely not picking a fight here , but how will extra funding combat the lack of interest from some parents in less well off areas , the lack of interest which manifests itself in the behaviour of the kids disrupting classes etc , when i agreed with you about the affluence of an area being a factor it was more to do with affluence=encouragement and interest from parents.

Yes exactly that, the more affluent the area the more encouragement you get and understanding of education from parents. The funding in school would just help fill the gap for those pupils not getting the help at home. Smaller focussed learning groups, specialist assistance such as phonics, ability to deal with disruption. The more qualified teaching staff you have available per pupil ratio, the better the learning outcomes. Staff salaries account for some 90% of a school's running budget, so just a tweak on that and you can get a phonics expert in twice a week or what have you. Does make a difference to those falling behind.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I was going to post the same thing, I can assure you funding has nothing to do with it, except within the context where dysfunctionality is too easily rewarded.

There needs to be more challenge and sanction rather than rewarding their conduct by giving them stuff, even perhaps some vague stigma to prompt some reasonable and responsible behaviour might be better, rather than ushering them in to the schools conference room where an overly willing 'Parent Support Worker' will offer more support, advice and further opportunities to access services and/or funding, there is never any incentive to act in a reasonable way its reward, reward reward ......

I'm not sure that is true. More parents are fined now than have ever been. Lateness, attendance, unapproved holidays are all clamped down on and punishable. Parents are banned from playgrounds for school pickups in certain cases where language or inappropriate behaviour is evident.

The point about funding is about the education of those pupils not getting the help they need outside of school. You don't just abandon them because their parents are crap. Within school, as I posted above, additional funding would add to the learning of those falling behind because they are not getting what they need elsewhere - you'd start to close the gap to those pupils that are achieving. Schools will help parents where they can with workshops etc. (which can be very useful) but parents have to be willing to attend, and there is not much a school can do beyond that.

 

[alfredmizen]

I'm not sure that is true. More parents are fined now than have ever been. Lateness, attendance, unapproved holidays are all clamped down on and punishable. Parents are banned from playgrounds for school pickups in certain cases where language or inappropriate behaviour is evident.

The point about funding is about the education of those pupils not getting the help they need outside of school. You don't just abandon them because their parents are crap. Within school, as I posted above, additional funding would add to the learning of those falling behind because they are not getting what they need elsewhere - you'd start to close the gap to those pupils that are achieving. Schools will help parents where they can with workshops etc. (which can be very useful) but parents have to be willing to attend, and there is not much a school can do beyond that.

As you say its a very complex problem , and I agree you cant just abandon kids whose parents are crap, but all too often the parents attitude filters through to the kids and helping them becomes difficult if not impossible , but thats just my opinion , with no real evidence to back it up , however on the flip side throwing money at a problem doesnt always work either , especially when its other peoples money and the public sector does have form for wastage. As for fining parents etc , it doesnt seem to work very well in the criminal courts so i cant see why it would in a civil court , some feckless , unemployed weed smoking mother on benefits isnt really going to give a shit about a fine which she'll be given time to pay for anyway.

 

[DanRedman]

Thanks for sharing this, I hope the BBC and other media continue to report behaviour similar to this around schools, instead of blaming teachers for failing education standards. Whilst some teachers may not be outstanding, the teaching time in any normal day is around 5 hours, under a 1/4 of a day. I'm a firm believer, as a teacher, that it is the work done at home to consolidate the learning in school will help a child's education. Dosent need to be hours and hours at home, but I think 20 minutes every evening will go such a long way. Only my opinion and I don't think there is any proof or evidence, but if you disagree feel free to let me know.

 

[Bold Seagull]

As you say its a very complex problem , and I agree you cant just abandon kids whose parents are crap, but all too often the parents attitude filters through to the kids and helping them becomes difficult if not impossible , but thats just my opinion , with no real evidence to back it up , however on the flip side throwing money at a problem doesnt always work either , especially when its other peoples money and the public sector does have form for wastage. As for fining parents etc , it doesnt seem to work very well in the criminal courts so i cant see why it would in a civil court , some feckless , unemployed weed smoking mother on benefits isnt really going to give a shit about a fine which she'll be given time to pay for anyway.

Fines do work for attendance in my experience. When you focus on attendance, make parents realise how important every hour in school is, and how seriously the school is monitoring and checking attendance, then you see your attendance stats rise, and in a short space of time too. Its not so much the value of the fine, it's what it signifies. When I first became a governor attendance was a problem, however the head put strategies in place, gave teachers support in their monitoring, got parents in who were persistent offenders, and very quickly the stats demonstrated the impact that had.

For those of us taking the time to read to, and help our children, a school's approach to attendance can be frustrating because, 'what difference does a couple of days make', especially if your child is doing well. However for the school, those days missed for certain pupils is learning time they never get back. While I've made the case for funding, the first thing you've got to do is ensure that the kids are in school for every minute they can and should be. As you say it is very complex.

As for funding, I'm vice chair on a finance and resource committee, and can assure you every single penny is accounted for. The only luxuries the school gets are from funds raised by the PTA (and a school in Hove Park is going raise more than one in Fishergate, but their budget funding will be the same per pupil). Perhaps there is waste further up the chain, but certainly not from the money schools are given to spend.

 

[alfredmizen]

Fines do work for attendance in my experience. When you focus on attendance, make parents realise how important every hour in school is, and how seriously the school is monitoring and checking attendance, then you see your attendance stats rise, and in a short space of time too. Its not so much the value of the fine, it's what it signifies. When I first became a governor attendance was a problem, however the head put strategies in place, gave teachers support in their monitoring, got parents in who were persistent offenders, and very quickly the stats demonstrated the impact that had.

For those of us taking the time to read to, and help our children, a school's approach to attendance can be frustrating because, 'what difference does a couple of days make', especially if your child is doing well. However for the school, those days missed for certain pupils is learning time they never get back. While I've made the case for funding, the first thing you've got to do is ensure that the kids are in school for every minute they can and should be. As you say it is very complex.

As for funding, I'm vice chair on a finance and resource committee, and can assure you every single penny is accounted for. The only luxuries the school gets are from funds raised by the PTA (and a school in Hove Park is going raise more than one in Fishergate, but their budget funding will be the same per pupil). Perhaps there is waste further up the chain, but certainly not from the money schools are given to spend.

Hats off to you mate, if only every school had people like you willing to give up their time.

 

[Pavilionaire]

This is a non-story. One irresponsible person in Manchester lights up a doobie and we're supposed to reappraise primary school education?

 

[Elvis]

Two years ago the school where I work spent Pupil Premium allowances on sending year 10/11 pupils on a day release college course. The kids benefited greatly from learning in an environment that was different from the more traditional classroom and it gave them options for continuing this path after year 11. Unfortunately those places have now dried up. The money is now used giving those kids 1-1 Maths and English tuition of which many of the kids spend this time with their heads buried in their hands!

Bushy is right, throwing money at the problem isn't a recipe for success. The most effective way is to spend the money wisely. Pupil Premium payments have identified an area of our community that needs more resources in order to break a cycle of kids whose parents got nothing out of school so therefore show no interest in their own childs education.

 

[Bold Seagull]

This is a non-story. One irresponsible person in Manchester lights up a doobie and we're supposed to reappraise primary school education?

We surely should be appraising education all the time shouldn't we?

 

[Pavilionaire]

We surely should be appraising education all the time shouldn't we?

If there were a spate of these incidents happening across the country then yes, maybe. But an isolated incident is an isolated incident.

 

[BigGully]

I'm not sure that is true. More parents are fined now than have ever been. Lateness, attendance, unapproved holidays are all clamped down on and punishable. Parents are banned from playgrounds for school pickups in certain cases where language or inappropriate behaviour is evident.

The point about funding is about the education of those pupils not getting the help they need outside of school. You don't just abandon them because their parents are crap. Within school, as I posted above, additional funding would add to the learning of those falling behind because they are not getting what they need elsewhere - you'd start to close the gap to those pupils that are achieving. Schools will help parents where they can with workshops etc. (which can be very useful) but parents have to be willing to attend, and there is not much a school can do beyond that.

Who gets fined, it isnt the dysfunctional parents that get fined its the functional parents that get fined.

Funding is already in place, through the benefit system, pupil premium, and other exemptions and many/all schools have specialist SENs, who can adequately deal with any educational issues.

But many of those pupils that happen to be children to the dysfunctional parents have no educational special needs, they may have emotional needs and safe guarding needs and this is why at some stage there needs more challenge and sanction to those parents that casually condemn their own children due to their own selfish actions.

We all know of a family situation which is desperately wretched and deserve as much support as possible, but in most cases those dysfunctional parents remain happily selfish, irresponsible and unaccountable yet still they demand and in most cases get rewarded for their rotten actions.

 

[Peteinblack]

Thanks for sharing this, I hope the BBC and other media continue to report behaviour similar to this around schools, instead of blaming teachers for failing education standards. Whilst some teachers may not be outstanding, the teaching time in any normal day is around 5 hours, under a 1/4 of a day. I'm a firm believer, as a teacher, that it is the work done at home to consolidate the learning in school will help a child's education. Dosent need to be hours and hours at home, but I think 20 minutes every evening will go such a long way. Only my opinion and I don't think there is any proof or evidence, but if you disagree feel free to let me know.

Totally agree; most of the time, the problems blamed on schools and teachers are ultimately due to poor parents. I genuinely wonder why some parents bother having kids, given how little they seem to care about them once they are born.

 

[Murray 17]

As regards funding, some children are being 'taught' on a regular basis by unqualified staff to save money. So called 'higher level' teaching assistants are often responsible for delivering education to children for 20% of the week. I don't want my child to be educated by them.