Prevent Donald Trump from making a state visit to the United Kingdom - petition

[alfredmizen]

Its not that i wont criticise Bushy. I agree, the Saudi government has a lot to answer for. Ive also mentioned this in previous posts regarding their role in the conflicts in the region.
However, the comparison made with the Trump ban, is invalid. Thats it.
Will you be joining Nevill on his march to the Saudi Embassy?

no , i dont give a shit .

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Well you see Saudi Arabia is a muslim country and you can't criticize them lest you be dubbed a racist.

You can't even criticise ****ing Stoke these days.





(Joke)

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

All I have said, is that the comparison with the Trump ban is invalid. It is entirely different.
Have you organised a protest against the Saudi regime?

In what way is it invalid ? If anything the Saudi action is worse. Imagine being a law abiding Pakistani worker deported (and unpaid) because of the actions of others. They live in squalor in Saudi and send all their money home to their families.
Regarding your question, I won't be organizing any protests because I prefer considered debate to shouting slogans.
I am genuinely surprised that you cannot see equivalence in this issue. I also think that the inability to apply a moral stance in a consistent manner will undermine our opposition to Trump. The same argument can be made against John Bercow given his lack of opposition to the Chinese visit. If people are serious about opposing discrimination and oppression they wouldn't be ignoring it in favour of anti Americanism.

 

[daveinprague]

In what way is it invalid ? If anything the Saudi action is worse. Imagine being a law abiding Pakistani worker deported (and unpaid) because of the actions of others. They live in squalor in Saudi and send all their money home to their families.
Regarding your question, I won't be organizing any protests because I prefer considered debate to shouting slogans.
I am genuinely surprised that you cannot see equivalence in this issue. I also think that the inability to apply a moral stance in a consistent manner will undermine our opposition to Trump. The same argument can be made against John Bercow given his lack of opposition to the Chinese visit. If people are serious about opposing discrimination and oppression they wouldn't be ignoring it in favour of anti Americanism.

Im no fan of the Saudi regime for many reasons.
However, the Saudis are not the leaders of the free world, as is the USA.
They have deported 40,000 over a period of time, I suspect due to, as you say, the workers rights issues, and the fact they have suffered terror attacks in their country by Pakistani nationals.
Im sure there will be a protest of some sort, but to equate it with a blanket ban on Muslims from 7 countries, who have never committed a terror attack in the USA (Unlike Saudi citizens) as per the Trump ban really does not compare in my eyes. If people want to campaign about it, go for it. I will sign the petition if you start one.

 

[alfredmizen]

Im no fan of the Saudi regime for many reasons.
However, the Saudis are not the leaders of the free world, as is the USA.
They have deported 40,000 over a period of time, I suspect due to, as you say, the workers rights issues, and the fact they have suffered terror attacks in their country by Pakistani nationals.
Im sure there will be a protest of some sort, but to equate it with a blanket ban on Muslims from 7 countries, who have never committed a terror attack in the USA (Unlike Saudi citizens) as per the Trump ban really does not compare in my eyes. If people want to campaign about it, go for it. I will sign the petition if you start one.

Why did you work there then ?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Im no fan of the Saudi regime for many reasons.
However, the Saudis are not the leaders of the free world, as is the USA.
They have deported 40,000 over a period of time, I suspect due to, as you say, the workers rights issues, and the fact they have suffered terror attacks in their country by Pakistani nationals.
Im sure there will be a protest of some sort, but to equate it with a blanket ban on Muslims from 7 countries, who have never committed a terror attack in the USA (Unlike Saudi citizens) as per the Trump ban really does not compare in my eyes. If people want to campaign about it, go for it.

I'm not defending the Trump policy but it isn't a ban on muslims. It is a ban on all nationals of those countries. It is also temporary. My angle on this is purely the perceived hypocrisy and its potential to undermine opposition to Trump. I think the protestors should care more about this as otherwise it looks like they are involved not for the reasons they claim. Anyway, we agree to differ. It's Valentine's. Enjoy your day

 

[daveinprague]

Why did you work there then ?

I was young, out of work, and did not know any better.. and tempted with a massive salary for the time.

 

[studio150]

So much for Mrs May glowing folliwing her Trump meeting by telling everyone that she got Trump to commit to NATO given that the UK has fallen below the 2% target on defence spending.

No doubt Trump will now make us pay for any military involvement from the USA under the NATO banner or just abandon the UK entirely.

A really good start for the UK in being a global powerhouse when we can't keep to commitments agreed with international partners.

 

[daveinprague]

I'm not defending the Trump policy but it isn't a ban on muslims. It is a ban on all nationals of those countries. It is also temporary. My angle on this is purely the perceived hypocrisy and its potential to undermine opposition to Trump. I think the protestors should care more about this as otherwise it looks like they are involved not for the reasons they claim. Anyway, we agree to differ. It's Valentine's. Enjoy your day

I believe there is no ban on Christians from Iraq.

Its also not anti Americanism as you said earlier. Most of the protests are in America.
Yeah, I was reminded it was Valentines day, however, it clashes with a Brighton match

 

[The Clamp]

Deeply pathetic/ironic that those espousing how democracy has been carried out and must be respected in the next breath say people shouldn't protest or demonstrate or are idiots for doing so.

 

[vegster]

Why did you work there then ?

That reminds me, a few weeks back you said you had not had a pay rise for about 10 years. Why are you still in that job?

 

[BigGully]

I believe there is no ban on Christians from Iraq.

I am not too sure how you might differentiate by vetting between religions of individual people just as how can you be sure to differntiate between Muslims that might be inclined to either support or carry our a terrorist act against those Muslims that have no inclination to do so, so a blanket ban seems reasonable if you accept that initial premise.

But it seems strange to me that if the sole reason for banning anyone is to stop a potential Islamic attack initiated from abroad and if you could accurately identify a Christian agianst a Muslim why you feel that a Christian should be banned too ??

 

[sparkie]

Hopefully Flynn will now sing like a bird before he has an accident or drinks putin's polonium.

 

[daveinprague]

I am not too sure how you might differentiate by vetting between religions of individual people just as how can you be sure to differntiate between Muslims that might be inclined to either support or carry our a terrorist act against those Muslims that have no inclination to do so, so a blanket ban seems reasonable if you accept that initial premise.

But it seems strange to me that if the sole reason for banning anyone is to stop a potential Islamic attack initiated from abroad and if you could accurately identify a Christian agianst a Muslim why you feel that a Christian should be banned too ??

Im not saying Christians should be banned, im saying the ban, is a ban against muslims. If Christians from Iraq are exempt, then to me it seems to be a muslim ban

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Much of the protesting and outrage seems to be centred on the attempt to put temporary travel restrictions on citizens from seven Muslim-majority states. According to this ..

In our survey, carried out before President Trump’s executive order was announced, respondents were given the following statement: ‘All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped’. They were then asked to what extent did they agree or disagree with this statement. Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and 20% disagreed.

Majorities in all but two of the ten states agreed, ranging from 71% in Poland, 65% in Austria, 53% in Germany and 51% in Italy to 47% in the United Kingdom and 41% in Spain. In no country did the percentage that disagreed surpass 32%.

- See more at: https://www.chathamhouse.org/expert...about-muslim-immigration#sthash.airzawnh.dpuf

.. the protesters opinions are not very representative. If anything Trump's policy would be viewed as a bit tame by the majority.

 

[BigGully]

Im not saying Christians should be banned, im saying the ban, is a ban against muslims. If Christians from Iraq are exempt, then to me it seems to be a muslim ban

Of course it is, whether you agree or not the actions are an effort to reduce a perceived Islamist threat, but it isnt a ban against every Muslim where ever they might live, it is a ban against peoples within identified countries that have a higher likelhood of supporting Islamic terror.

 

[daveinprague]

Of course it is, whether you agree or not the actions are an effort to reduce a perceived Islamist threat, but it isnt a ban against every Muslim where ever they might live, it is a ban against peoples within identified countries that have a higher likelhood of supporting Islamic terror.

Im not sure the governments of the countries named support Islamic terror. They tend to be in the front of the fighting against it. Suffer the most from it. It is interesting that the country that has supplied the greater number of terrorists to attack the USA is not on the list.

 

[The Clamp]

Of course it is, whether you agree or not the actions are an effort to reduce a perceived Islamist threat, but it isnt a ban against every Muslim where ever they might live, it is a ban against peoples within identified countries that have a higher likelhood of supporting Islamic terror.

Really? Really?


According to the Washington Post and Bloomberg, Trump’s ban did not include any of the Muslim-majority countries where the Trump Organization — which is now being run by his sons — holds business interests. Those countries reportedly include Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, the U.A.E. and Azerbaijan.

Here’s a look back at the major terrorist attacks that have taken place on U.S. soil since 9/11, including the nationalities of the perpetrator, or perpetrators.

Of this list, zero fatal attacks were carried out by immigrants from the seven Muslim-majority countries targeted by the ban. Two attacks were carried out by individuals with ties to the seven countries: the 2006 UNC SUV attack, and the 2016 Ohio State University attack. Neither of those plots resulted in American deaths.

9/11 attacks:

On Sept. 11, 2001, 19 militants hijacked four commercial airlines to carry out terrorist attacks on the U.S. that killed 2,996 people and wounded more than 6,000 others. The 19 men were associated with al-Qaeda, a decentralized terrorist network, at the time led by Osama bin Laden.

Of the 19 hijackers, 15 were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt and one from Lebanon.

2001 anthrax attacks:

Anonymous letters laced with deadly anthrax spores began arriving at media companies and congressional offices, killing five people and infecting 17 others. The FBI concluded Bruce Ivins, a top biodefense researcher, was the key suspect for the attacks, although he was never charged with any crime. Ivins was American.



2002 D.C. sniper attacks:

Over the course of three weeks in 2002, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 10 people and critically injured three others in Washington D.C., Baltimore, and Virginia.

Muhammad was born as John Allen Williams in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Malvo is from Jamaica.

2006 UNC SUV attack:

Mohammed Reza Taheri-aza intentionally rammed into people on the UNC Chapel Hill campus. Nine people were injured, none seriously. Taheri-aza was reportedly an Iranian-born U.S. citizen.



2006 Seattle Capitol Hill massacre:

Kyle Aaron Huff opened fire in a rave afterparty in Seattle’s Capitol Hill, killing six and wounding two others. Huff was American, from Whitefish, Montana.

2006 Seattle Jewish Federation shooting:



Naveed Afzal Haq shot six people, one fatally, at the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle building. Haq was a U.S. citizen of Pakistani descent.

2008 Knoxville Unitarian Universalist church shooting:

Jim David Adkisson killed two people and wounded seven others at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee. Adkisson was American.

2009 Arkansas recruiting office shooting:

Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad shot and killed one military recruiter and seriously wounded another at a Little Rock, Arkansas Army/Navy Career Center. Muhammad, previously known as Carlos Leon Bledsoe, was American.

2009 Fort Hood shooting:

Nidal Malik Hasan, a U.S. Army major and psychiatrist, fatally shot 13 people and injured more than 30 others in Fort Hood, Texas. Hasan was born in the U.S. to Palestinian parents.

2010 Austin suicide attack:

Andrew Joseph Stack III deliberately crashed his single engine plane into the Austin, Texas, IRS building, killing himself, one IRS employee and injuring 13 others. Stack was American.

2012 Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting:

Wade Michael Page fatally shot six people and wounded four others at a Sikh temple is Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Page, who was active in white supremacist groups, was an American.


2013 Boston marathon bombing:

Double bombings near the finish line of the Boston marathon killed three people and injured at least 264. The perpetrators were brothers Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. According to FBI interrogators, the two were motivated by extremist Islamic beliefs, but were not connected to any known terrorist groups. Tamerlan was born in Russia but was a permanent resident of the U.S., while Dzhokhar was born in Kyrgyzstan and became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 2012. Both were ethnically Chechen.

2013 Los Angeles International Airport shooting:

Paul Anthony Ciancia opened fire at Terminal 3 in LAX, killing one and injuring several others. Ciancia is American and grew up in Pennsville, New Jersey.

2014 Overland Park Jewish Community Center shooting:

Frazier Glenn Miller, Jr., a neo-Nazi white supremacist, committed a pair of shootings at the Jewish Community Center in Overland Park, Kansas, killing a total of three people. Miller was American.

2014 Las Vegas shooting:

A married couple, Jerad and Amanda Miller, committed a shooting spree in Las Vegas, killing three people as well as themselves. Both were American and supported extreme anti-government views.

2014 Queens hatchet attack:

Zale H. Thompson attacked four New York City Police Department officers with a metal hatchet, injuring two. A civilian was also injured after police opened fire on Thompson. Thompson, who was American, was described by police officials as a self-radicalized Muslim convert who was inspired by terrorist groups.

2014 slayings of NYPD officers:

Ismaaiyl Abdullah Brinsley killed two on-duty NYPD officers, reportedly as revenge for the deaths of Eric Garner and Michael Brown. Brinsley was born in the U.S. to a Muslim African-American family.



2015 Charleston church shooting:

Dylann Roof killed nine people and injured one during a mass shooting at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in downtown Charleston, South Carolina. Roof, a white supremacist, is American and was sentenced to death on Jan. 10.

2015 Chattanooga shooting:

Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez opened fire on two military installations in Chattanooga, Tennessee, killing four Marines and wounding two others. A fifth Marine died from his injuries two days later. Abdulazeez, a naturalized U.S. citizen, was born in Kuwait to Palestinian-Jordanian parents.

2015 Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooting:

Robert Lewis Dear, Jr. committed a mass shooting at a Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood clinic, killing three and injury nine others. Dear, who is American, was ruled incompetent to stand trial and was indefinitely confined to a Colorado state mental hospital.

2015 San Bernardino attack:

A married couple, Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, killed 14 civilians and injured 22 others in a mass shooting at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, California. Farook was born in the U.S. to Pakistani parents, and Malik, who was a permanent U.S. resident, was born in Pakistan but grew up in Saudi Arabia.

2016 Orlando nightclub shooting:

Omar Mateen killed 49 people and wounded 53 in a mass shooting at the gay nightclub Pulse in Orlando, Florida. Mateen was an American born in the U.S. to Afghan parents.

2016 shooting of Dallas police officers: Micah Xavier Johnson ambushed a group of Dallas police officers, killing five and injuring nine others. Johnson, a former Army reservist, was an American.



2016 Minnesota mall stabbing:

Dahir A. Adan committed a mass stabbing at the Crossroads Center shopping mall in St. Cloud, Minnesota, injuring 10 people. Adan was born in Kenya and became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 2008.

2016 New York and New Jersey bombings:

Over the course of three days in September, three bombs exploded and several explosive devices were found in New Jersey and New York City, injuring at least 30 people. The alleged perpetrator was Ahmad Khan Rahimi, an Afghan-born U.S. citizen.

2016 Ohio State university attack:

Abdul Razal Ali Artan carried out an attack on the Ohio State University campus, injuring 13. Artan, a student of the university, was a Muslim Somali immigrant.

2017 Fort Lauderdale Airport attack:

A mass shooting occurred at Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport near the baggage claim in Terminal 2 on Jan. 6. A total of five people were killed and six others were injured. Esteban Ruiz Santiago, the alleged shooter, was indicted on 22 counts by a federal grand jury on Thursday. Santiago is an American, born to Puerto Rican parents in New Jersey.


source: AURELIE CORINTHIOS People Politics.

 

[beorhthelm]

Im not saying Christians should be banned, im saying the ban, is a ban against muslims. If Christians from Iraq are exempt, then to me it seems to be a muslim ban

would an Iraqi passport show religion? otherwise its a ban on all Iraqis. based on Obama legislation that specified a naughty list if we remember.

its comical how this issue is being played out. of course its intended to be a ban on Muslims, as pledged, yet fails to ban vast swaths of the Muslim nation, and is temporary. he ticked a box without really doing anything, and their courts are dealing with it.

 

[daveinprague]

would an Iraqi passport show religion? otherwise its a ban on all Iraqis. based on Obama legislation that specified a naughty list if we remember.

its comical how this issue is being played out. of course its intended to be a ban on Muslims, as pledged, yet fails to ban vast swaths of the Muslim nation, and is temporary. he ticked a box without really doing anything, and their courts are dealing with it.

quite