[Football] Pretendance - THE FACTS

[chaileyjem]

BBC Sport have done a rather good long read using FOI requests to calculate the real attendances at Premier League games rather than "tickets sold".
For the survey , Spurs and Watfords least attended game was v ....Brighton.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45158878

• West Ham: Newham council says the average attendance at West Ham was 42,779 based on the 12 games it attended - which is 12,530 fans fewer than the club's season average figure of 55,309.
• Manchester City: Greater Manchester Police's average figures were 7,482 lower than club figures, again based on 12 games.
• Southampton: Hampshire Police figures were an average of 4,246 fans lower than figures issued by the club.
• Tottenham: Brent Council says crowds at Wembley Stadium were on average 3,740 less than the club's stated numbers.
• Chelsea: Hammersmith and Fulham council says its average was 3,505 fans lower than club numbers, based on six games.
• Watford: Hertfordshire Police says its average was 2,602 fans fewer than club figures, based on four games.
• Manchester United: Trafford Council and Greater Manchester Police both said United's published attendance figures matched its own, based on 12 games.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

From the same article:

The Football Supporters' Federation says there is "an issue of transparency" if clubs only release data on tickets sold... The FSF added: "If clubs know the actual number of fans through the turnstile, rather than the number of tickets sold or given away, then there's no reason they shouldn't publish that figure."

 

[timbha]

Are we football fans the only ones obsessed by attendances? I don’t notice it in other sports and it’s certainly not announced in the cinema 10 minutes before the end of a film, on a train or in the checkout queue at Asda!

 

[Is it PotG?]

Indeed, whether they announce 29,368 or 27,927, a toss I give not.

This Sky TV obsession with stats and comparative figures is becoming something akin to an OCD pandemic.

 

[BN41Albion]

Are we football fans the only ones obsessed by attendances? I don’t notice it in other sports and it’s certainly not announced in the cinema 10 minutes before the end of a film, on a train or in the checkout queue at Asda!

It is bizzare. I also find it bizzare when people call other clubs 'tinpot' for having smaller gates. I'm sure a few on here were calling Burnley tinpot on a thread not long back. A club in a relatively small town not far north of Manchester and Liverpool!

 

[timbha]

Indeed, whether they announce 29,368 or 27,927, a toss I give not.

This Sky TV obsession with stats and comparative figures is becoming something akin to an OCD pandemic.

I refuse to judge a match based on distance run, completed passes, possession, time spent in attacking quarter, etc, etc. These endless stats are becoming a bigger bore than Jamie Redknapp and Glenn Hoddle

 

[Dirk Lehmann's Python]

Staggering amount of no-shows at Man City. Odd given how unbelievably good they were last year.

 

[LlcoolJ]

It is bizzare. I also find it bizzare when people call other clubs 'tinpot' for having smaller gates. I'm sure a few on here were calling Burnley tinpot on a thread not long back. A club in a relatively small town not far north of Manchester and Liverpool!

Burnley is a SHITHOLE. It's Reading who are TINPOT.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Staggering amount of no-shows at Man City. Odd given how unbelievably good they were last year.

The number of people not turning up at West Ham is more than the usual attendance at Palace in the Championship.

 

[Dorset Seagull]

I refuse to judge a match based on distance run, completed passes, possession, time spent in attacking quarter, etc, etc. These endless stats are becoming a bigger bore than Jamie Redknapp and Glenn Hoddle

Exactly. The score at the end of the match is the only relevant stat

 

[El Presidente]

You would think that clubs, if they gave a shit, would investigate why there are so many no shows. Perhaps they have investigated and prefer to be quiet about their findings, or they don’t give a shit?

 

[The Maharajah of Sydney]

" Tottenham's largest discrepancy was 8,686 (55,124 - 46,438) for the game with Brighton on 3 December. "

That's less than there were at the same fixture 40 years ago in a lower division.

 

[Brovion]

Are we football fans the only ones obsessed by attendances? I don’t notice it in other sports and it’s certainly not announced in the cinema 10 minutes before the end of a film, on a train or in the checkout queue at Asda!

I get where you're coming from, but for me it's the principle. Ok, I'm a bit of a grammar Nazi (and proud of it) and 'tickets sold' it is NOT the same as 'attendance'; the two are totally separate statistics and should not be used as interchangeable terms. Attendance is tickets sold minus no-shows. It would be nice to see what the figures are so we can work out how many no-shows we get and what we can do to reduce it. (I hate seeing all the empty seats on TV when the match has officially sold out).

Also if a ST also gets you admission to Dev squad games and the like then the 'attendance' at all those is also 25,000 or so (or whatever the ST figure is). I'm sure Simon Rusk's boys really appreciate the support!

Yes in the Grand Scheme Of Things it's a petty thing, but it irritates me.

 

[Bozza]

The Albion guard this information like the Crown Jewels. This is the response the last time I asked Brighton & Hove Council who, it seems, asked the club if they could release their figures:

Please find set out below the information in response to the above request:

The information you have requested regarding capacity figures for the Amex Stadium’s actual attendance figures for the current 2015-16 season is held by Brighton & Hove City Council but is being withheld because we consider that the exemption under Section 43 (2) of the Act applies to the information.

Section 43 (2) of the Act provides an exemption from disclosure of information which would be likely to prejudice the commercial interests of any person (including those of the Council and other businesses).

A commercial interest can arise in a number of different circumstances. However, in broad terms, a commercial interest relates to any person's ability to buy or sell goods or services or to operate effectively without undermining its trading position.

In considering the exemptions at section 43(2) we have considered the balance of the public interest arguments for and against disclosure. We recognise that there is a public interest in transparency and accountability in public decision making.

We have also considered the public interest in maintaining the exemption in this area. We believe that there is a strong public interest to withhold the information because the Brighton & Hove Albion FC have informed us that the information is used by the caterers and sponsors, who use the attendance information to calculate the value of their sponsorship rights and contracts. Even more significant for the stadium is that other clubs use attendance information to work out the club’s possible future revenues and therefore how much Brighton & Hove Albion will have to spend on player budgets, which is likely to prejudice the team’s competitive edge.

Taking the likely prejudice outlined above into account, we are satisfied that the public interest in withholding the requested information in this respect outweighs the public interest in disclosure.

 

[Bozza]

Brighton & Hove Albion FC have informed us that the information is used by the caterers and sponsors, who use the attendance information to calculate the value of their sponsorship rights and contracts. Even more significant for the stadium is that other clubs use attendance information to work out the club’s possible future revenues and therefore how much Brighton & Hove Albion will have to spend on player budgets, which is likely to prejudice the team’s competitive edge.

Particularly, isn't the above total bollocks?

1. Caterers and sponsors use a fictional figure to calculate the value of their sponsorships and contracts? Really? Surely they are only interested in the actual number in the ground, not the made-up number.

2. Other clubs use attendance figures to work out the club's future revenues? Well, maybe they do, but revenues are earned by tickets sold and that is the figure the club announce. It makes not a jot of difference to gate revenues whether all 30,500 of those buying tickets turn up, or none of them do.

 

[beorhthelm]

You would think that clubs, if they gave a shit, would investigate why there are so many no shows. Perhaps they have investigated and prefer to be quiet about their findings, or they don’t give a shit?

or, cant do much about it? apart from taking tickets away from persistent season ticket no shows, what can they do, force people to attend or give up their ticket to resell. certainly could do more to make transfer of tickets easier but not sure what else. and does it matter for any other reason than this?

 

[LlcoolJ]

Particularly, isn't the above total bollocks?

1. Caterers and sponsors use a fictional figure to calculate the value of their sponsorships and contracts? Really? Surely they are only interested in the actual number in the ground, not the made-up number.

2. Other clubs use attendance figures to work out the club's future revenues? Well, maybe they do, but revenues are earned by tickets sold and that is the figure the club announce. It makes not a jot of difference to gate revenues whether all 30,500 of those buying tickets turn up, or none of them do.

Another reason that point 2 is also bollocks is that gate receipts have little to no bearing on how much any club has to spend on players/wages.

In the Championship it's down to how much owners are prepared to lose and in the PL it's about TV money (plus how much owners are prepared to lose).

Whether we get 25,000 or 30,000 at each home game has virtually nothing to do with our transfer budget.

 

[Knocky's Nose]

I think the "Plain English Campaign" need to give their version of the reply....

"Dear Bozza, BHAFC are kinda caught in this cycle where they've started telling a few porkies about 'real' attendances - and now their revenue depends on it, plus a few other bits and pieces. Best we tap the sides of our noses and say no more. Now, run along"

I think it'd be funny if there was a big number on the score board with "No Shows. 4,892 : Thanks for your money, anyway"

 

[Birdie Boy]

Staggering amount of no-shows at Man City. Odd given how unbelievably good they were last year.

The other staggering thing that I find about City is that they have to advertise on radio and in papers to sell tickets. You would think that they could easily sell out especially champions league games.

 

[SAC]

Did they ask all the PL clubs/councils and only these ones reply? No need for secrecy.