[Albion] Premier League 16-23/01

[Spiros]

I think a couple of seconds and no one bats an eyelid. If Mings takes the ball down, traps it, and then the city player closes him down, more people would recognise that as two phases of plays. But because the city player closes him down as he's trapping the ball, it feels like it's a challenge for the ball from the City player. I seem to be going back and forth in my own mind as to how much I think those couple of seconds matter.

The funny thing is that if Mings had actually left the ball then Rodrigo would have been given offside. As soon as he takes an intentional touch he puts the City player back onside. Same as if Mings had tried to nod it back to the keeper - no-one would have been screaming 'offside' then as it's known that a player can't be offside if the defender is the one who's played the ball. This is just a different instance of the same law IMHO. Still funny to see how much it pissed off Smith and Terry - those goons deserve each other

 

[gazingdown]

Many (most?) pundits often comment based on what they think the rules "should be" rather than what the rule actually IS.
It's amateurish.

At least say "Well, according to the rules he was not offside so the ref got it right, however I think there's room for debate as to whether the rule should change"......

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Fulham !

The fixture was postponed on Jan 3rd.

That’s not too bad for us then. Someone won’t be able to gain 3 on us. Hopefully neither of them will.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I think a couple of seconds and no one bats an eyelid. If Mings takes the ball down, traps it, and then the city player closes him down, more people would recognise that as two phases of plays. But because the city player closes him down as he's trapping the ball, it feels like it's a challenge for the ball from the City player. I seem to be going back and forth in my own mind as to how much I think those couple of seconds matter.

Doesn’t that show how VAR has failed to address the issue of ‘rightness’ ? Instead the goal posts have moved because we are all over analyzing every incident. This happened to a degree before VAR but our threshold for ‘getting it right’ has ratcheted higher. Maybe it’s the human trait of competitiveness, in this case with technology. If you step back then surely the answer is that those seconds don’t matter at all, either way.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

That interpretation of the offside is ridiculous, because it should be superceded by 'interfering with play'. The ball was played to Rodri but intercepted by Mings, it should have been flagged as offside as soon as Rodri attempted to play the ball. The idea that its not offside because Mings 'deliberately played the ball' is daft. If the ball was higher and flicked off his head into Rodri's path it would have been instantly called offside, even though that would also be 'deliberately playing the ball'. If a keeper saves a shot and an offside player then puts the rebound in the net its called offside 100% of the time, even though the keeper is also 'deliberately playing the ball'.

That interpretation is reserved for occasions when for example, the team have the ball and play a back pass that is intercepted by a player standing offside, and similar scenarios.

The referees are just covering their backs with that definition, but it's not right.

 

[Hotchilidog]

I think it's more that surely we've got to beat SOMEONE at home at some point. We weren't better than Arsenal, Man Utd or Liverpool but we've managed to take points off them at the Amex in the past. Of late it has felt like we need an almost perfect performance to get anything from a game, we need to grind out some points and beating Fulham at home should not be a daunting prospect after 4yrs on the Premier league.

Very much this. This all becomes a lot easier if we can actually win a home game or two.

 

[blue-shifted]

Many (most?) pundits often comment based on what they think the rules "should be" rather than what the rule actually IS.
It's amateurish.

At least say "Well, according to the rules he was not offside so the ref got it right, however I think there's room for debate as to whether the rule should change"......

It's because they have no idea what the rules are .... Sometimes I wonder if I do these days .... however, i'm not paid to talk about them

 

[blue-shifted]

I think it's more that surely we've got to beat SOMEONE at home at some point. We weren't better than Arsenal, Man Utd or Liverpool but we've managed to take points off them at the Amex in the past. Of late it has felt like we need an almost perfect performance to get anything from a game, we need to grind out some points and beating Fulham at home should not be a daunting prospect after 4yrs on the Premier league.

Blackpool at home

Big game ... if only the chance to get a monkey off our backs.

Then the really big game.

I think we'll win both

 

[Acker79]

Doesn’t that show how VAR has failed to address the issue of ‘rightness’ ? Instead the goal posts have moved because we are all over analyzing every incident. This happened to a degree before VAR but our threshold for ‘getting it right’ has ratcheted higher. Maybe it’s the human trait of competitiveness, in this case with technology. If you step back then surely the answer is that those seconds don’t matter at all, either way.

I don't think it does. I'm not arguing it has addressed rightness, but that this example isn't evidence either way.

This wouldn't have been a borderline decision that the lino shouldn't flag. So it seems the lino, independent of VAR, decided the player was onside and there was no need to flag. Referees have been known to question seemingly obvious offside decisions (I'm thinking of our goal v Everton a couple of seasons ago where the lino waved offside when it was played by an everton player - the ref was already heading over to chat with the lino when our players started to protest) and he didn't so it seems he agreed. Then when VAR came in to play by virtue of reviewing every goal, the VAR agreed without even needing to flash up the goal review thing (and as offside, the VAR can overrule the onfield decision rather than advise the ref to look at the monitor). It seems, in the eyes of all the active, up-to-date trained and instructed officials, it was a clear decision.

 

[Worried Man Blues]

Would the ref have been marked down by his bosses if he had blown for offside. Although against the letter of the law would they have turned a blind eye or knocked his points down?

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

That interpretation of the offside is ridiculous, because it should be superceded by 'interfering with play'. The ball was played to Rodri but intercepted by Mings, it should have been flagged as offside as soon as Rodri attempted to play the ball. The idea that its not offside because Mings 'deliberately played the ball' is daft. If the ball was higher and flicked off his head into Rodri's path it would have been instantly called offside, even though that would also be 'deliberately playing the ball'. If a keeper saves a shot and an offside player then puts the rebound in the net its called offside 100% of the time, even though the keeper is also 'deliberately playing the ball'.

That interpretation is reserved for occasions when for example, the team have the ball and play a back pass that is intercepted by a player standing offside, and similar scenarios.

The referees are just covering their backs with that definition, but it's not right.

Correct.

 

[Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo]

That interpretation of the offside is ridiculous, because it should be superceded by 'interfering with play'. The ball was played to Rodri but intercepted by Mings, it should have been flagged as offside as soon as Rodri attempted to play the ball. The idea that its not offside because Mings 'deliberately played the ball' is daft. If the ball was higher and flicked off his head into Rodri's path it would have been instantly called offside, even though that would also be 'deliberately playing the ball'. If a keeper saves a shot and an offside player then puts the rebound in the net its called offside 100% of the time, even though the keeper is also 'deliberately playing the ball'.

That interpretation is reserved for occasions when for example, the team have the ball and play a back pass that is intercepted by a player standing offside, and similar scenarios.

The referees are just covering their backs with that definition, but it's not right.

Deliberately saving a shot (by either a goalkeeper or an outfield player) is defined separately to deliberately playing the ball in the laws of the game for offside.

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.
A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).

I agree the law as it stands on the definition of gaining an advantage when an opponent plays the ball deliberately is daft (and needs looking at) but the ref on the night got it right, and it pissed off Smith and Terry which is always amusing.

 

[SweatyMexican]

A home win? Against a bottom 4 club?

That'll be the day.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

A home win? Against a bottom 4 club?

That'll be the day.

Indeed. I still cherish my distant memory of Andone's 80th minute winner v Huddersfield, and there was also that win v Bournemouth.

But other than that the recent pickings are slim.

 

[lawros left foot]

I wanted 4 points out of the Dirty Leeds and Fulham game, so, I’d take a draw.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Would you really bring Lallana back in after the two excellent games from Alexis

There's an argument vs Fulham for dropping Burn, putting White back as CB, putting Lallana alongside Bissouma and playing Mac ahead in the hole with Maupay and Tau running the left and right channels.

Such as formation would enable you to benefit from Mac's excellent short passing interplay with the forwards and Lallana's excellent eye for a longer pass to the men in front of him.

Trossard would also miss out.

 

[BNthree]

[SUP][/SUP]

There's an argument vs Fulham for dropping Burn, putting White back as CB, putting Lallana alongside Bissouma and playing Mac ahead in the hole with Maupay and Tau running the left and right channels.

Such as formation would enable you to benefit from Mac's excellent short passing interplay with the forwards and Lallana's excellent eye for a longer pass to the men in front of him.

Trossard would also miss out.

Sadly Potter has just done the press conference and said Lallana won't be featuring as he's still recuperating.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Indeed. I still cherish my distant memory of Andone's 80th minute winner v Huddersfield, and there was also that win v Bournemouth.

But other than that the recent pickings are slim.

Picked up 13 points against the relegated sides last season, just dropping points against Bournemouth away and Watford at home.

Only relegated side who beat us at home in our three seasons is Cardiff, and the lowest placed team to beat us at home this season sit 9th.

A win will be nice, but Fulhan need the win far more than we do, which should mean they don't sit very deep, as we've struggled to break down those teams which do, like Sheffield and Burnley this season.

 

[jabba]

Surely no points for Burnley tonight?
From BBC website:

Burnley's 1-0 triumph at Arsenal on 13 December, courtesy of a Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang own goal, is their only away league victory this season (D3, L5). It is also the only goal that Burnley have scored in their past seven away games.

 

[jabba]

Wood & Barnes starting up front.