[Albion] Potter's Phenomenal Courage

[Pint of Ale and a Burger]

Yes I agree with the OP.
I think "bravery" is a word potter has used a lot since joining us.
Right from the beginning he spoke about the bravery needed from the players to play his way,and you could really see the conflict in the players minds in the early days.
I think potter has instilled that bravery in the players now,and leads by example in everything he does(team formation,player selection,choice of jacket,etc) which also rubs off on the players, especially the youngsters like Sanchez,moder,zequiri etc.
But also I think that courage and bravery comes from bloom as well.
In the same way lesser men than potter may have thought"ok,**** this .we need to start parking the bus now,forget everything I said ok guys,defend for your lives dammit!" ,Lesser men than Tony bloom would have sacked potter and we may well be in a far worse situation than we are now.
But bloom had the courage to believe in his choice of manager and the abilities of the manager.
I think that's the thing now at the club and potter has been a key part of that is everyone has bravery courage and belief in themselves and what they are doing,even at times when natural human instincts say otherwise.

 

[vegster]

Well, my definition of courage is whatever is the context. It might be courageous for someone with a fear of enclosed spaces to get into a lift. I'm not really sure you can judge courage purely on threat to life or safety.

A dictionary definition of courage: the ability to do something that frightens one

If you're limiting courage to your definition of bravery, or threat to life / safety, then it becomes a much more limited word than it really is. I would have thought it's pretty damn obvious in the context I have used it, that courage in this context is to do something that might lead to failure. I doubt anyone but you thought I was using courage in the same context as a nurse or soldier.

So then, in that context, how do we know that Graham Potter puts out a team which plays in a way that " frightens himself " ?

 

[GT49er]

Depends on your definition of " courage" really? I think health are workers still working with Covid patients while having limited or faulty PPE was a tad more courageous. Or, our soldiers braving the horrors of Afghanistan for £20k a year is pretty courageous.
Not so courageous to play a certain way as a football team and get paid off a Million or so if it goes wrong.

Yes, he's certainly made some brave decisions ('brave' when they come off, foolhardy when they don't, of course!) - but 'phenomenal courage' does seem a bit OTT; it's not as if he's facing any real life threatening danger.

 

[vegster]

Yes, he's certainly made some brave decisions ('brave' when they come off, foolhardy when they don't, of course!) - but 'phenomenal courage' does seem a bit OTT; it's not as if he's facing any real life threatening danger.

I do think that maybe Steve Bruce is an exception, must take courage going in to work there every morning these days.

 

[Weststander]

So then, in that context, how do we know that Graham Potter puts out a team which plays in a way that " frightens himself " ?

For once, I'm not on your wavelength

Potter stuck to an expansive and passing game, even when results were hellish, with a social media backlash against him (we know he knew about it, because of a couple of arsey by his standards interview comments).

His job and reputation was on the line, as well as the pressure of keeping a club in a place it fought hard to get to and the only place to have any chance of not being a financial basket case.

Huge pressures, look at the way even Wenger, Clough Snr and Ferguson were ruined healthwise.

I think it took courage to stick his core beliefs. Where so many others including Ancelotti have morphed into playing the percentages, getting the ball in the mixer, mass defence, teams of giants to roughhouse the opposition, cheating, coaching diving and screaming. Anything to carve out wins and draws.


No one I hope undervalues the bravery of the armed forces, police, paramedics, doctors and nurses, especially during the pandemic for the latter groups. But Potter in a different way has been brave within his profession and role.

 

[maltaseagull]

This is specifically about the bravery of a manager with many question marks over them, at his first job in the top tier, without a squad of instantly recognisable names and performers, playing the game in an innovative, creative, progressive style.

You take a step back from the instant criticism of 'we are in the same place in the table' (if you can...), and whether you agree or not, it takes a HUGE dose of courage in a must win game against a team 1 point below you to try something like playing your strikers out wide, bring wing backs through the centre etc. That's some balls that is. Goes wrong and you are taking hell of a lot of flak.

I think it is fairly easy to take the Allardyce, Hodgson, Dyche, Bruce even Smith and Moyes approach of practicalities and probabilities over creativity and intent. Clearly for Hodgson and Dyche it has paid off season after season. You know what you're going to get. Burnley are a success story, this isn't a thread to undermine their approach, because it's their way, and proved to work. However it is a repeatable model, one that Bruce simply tried to emulate at the weekend. Sit deep in numbers, hope to nick a goal, just contain the opposition. I felt that had Moyes had a bit more courage in him, they would have beaten Arsenal, instead panic set in and that core instinct of holding on to what they had.

To go into games against Man City, Spurs, Liverpool, Leicester - the front runners this season, and others like Chelsea and Man Utd earlier, and take the game to them, regardless of results, has been - courageous. It's simply not often done by a team in our position.

That courage is what I think will imprint on the players in the long run. The manager's faith in them to play with freedom, expression, to take the game to any opposition will reap eventual rewards. Not a fly by season of finishing 9th then getting relegated the year after, but a transformation of belief throughout the club.

I don't hold that Potter is immune from criticism, or doesn't make mistakes, when you innovate, try new things, then you are always at risk of it going wrong. No successful innovation started without risk, success makes it seem obvious, but it starts with a moment of courage that you are doing something right.

That's why much of the criticism Potter faces is understandable. We haven't been infallible this season. Unusual choices of substitution appeared to make us worse not better, certain tactics led to what felt like preventable goals against us. However, for much of the time, it's been exciting to watch. You can tell when you listen to pundits, commentators, neutrals, we're a good game of football to tune into, there is plenty to talk about, you don't know what shape we're playing even 5 or 10mins into the game. It's fascinating, exciting - terrifying when you need the points.

It's all about courage though, and the foundations are definitely being laid on a club that 'believes' it belongs at this level. It's easy to say it, it's a huge challenge to believe it.

swansman's 2nd account?

Not that I disagree

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

So then, in that context, how do we know that Graham Potter puts out a team which plays in a way that " frightens himself " ?

I've made the comparison pretty clear that many other managers in the same position don't take the risks, playing to pragmatics. I have given the opinion that it takes courage for the manager to play the way he is playing without fear of failure or defeat. I doubt he personally would see it as courage because he believes what he is doing is right, and looks pretty damn confident and assured in doing so. I am concluding it is taking courage to do it, because I see most managers reverting to type under that much pressure in a relegation scrap.

In the same way really, you and I can appreciate nurses and medical professionals showing huge courage in the situations they are in, but they may well feel they aren't showing courage at all and just doing their job. It is all about the context.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Yes, he's certainly made some brave decisions ('brave' when they come off, foolhardy when they don't, of course!) - but 'phenomenal courage' does seem a bit OTT; it's not as if he's facing any real life threatening danger.

Okay, Potter's Courage would have been sufficient. Thread title is a bit tabloid.

 

[Swansman]

I do commend his courage for playing Sanchez (although presumably he was standing out in training long before he played), but I'm not sure I fully buy into the myth that he's a master at bringing through younger players. Alzate has been put in the shade for no obvious reason. Connolly benefited from there being no Welbeck in the squad last season. Lamptey is an extraordinary talent who any manager who pick having been able to pick him up (maybe Potter had a role in identifying the player in the first instance, if so he gets respect for that too!). Other than those, I'm not sure there's too much more praise due. Ben White was brilliant last season and was always going to be playing in the PL this. Khadra's injury came at a bad time for him, I really like what we saw at City of him. Zeqiri has had a couple of games as well.

What am I missing? I do agree we've played nice football pretty much all season but I would question some of the basics of the team. Some of it isn't Potter's fault (he doesn't miss the chances being created), but some of it is (defensive set piece organisation).

Overall, I think managers should be given the time to manage their team. We're obviously a club looking to build, the infrastructure changes over the last 10 years are incredible. We've made the PL and we're looking good for a 5th straight season in the top flight for the first time. We have a young manager with new ideas and a man in Ashworth who seems to know what he's doing in terms of recruitment and longer term squad building and planning. The future is bright but we should never take our eye off the present.

17/18: 4th oldest squad (weighted by minutes played) in the league
18/19: 5th oldest
19/20: 10th oldest
20/21: 16th oldest

Myth or no myth, fact remains Potter is playing younger players than 15 other PL managers which has not been the case previously.

As for Connolly, despite his injury troubles only a handful strikers (Foden, Brewster, Greenwood, Ferran Torres, Pedro Neto, Fabio Silva) younger than him got more minutes in the PL this season and only ten or so U22 midfielders got more game time than Ali Mac & Alzate. Alzate being "in shade for no obvious reason" gets more obvious if you look at the performances from other Brighton midfielders.

Giving young players a chance doesnt mean playing them when there's better options available, because there's no room for charity on this level. It just means that you are competing on equal terms rather than getting overlooked due to their "lack of experience", fear of unsettling established players or fear that how they perform in training wont translate into how they perform in match days. To me it is obvious that Alzate is a good player but it is also equally obvious that Gross, Lallana and Bissouma (and less obviously possibly Ali Mac and mf-White) are better.

 

[vegster]

For once, I'm not on your wavelength

Potter stuck to an expansive and passing game, even when results were hellish, with a social media backlash against him (we know he knew about it, because of a couple of arsey by his standards interview comments).

His job and reputation was on the line, as well as the pressure of keeping a club in a place it fought hard to get to and the only place to have any chance of not being a financial basket case.

Huge pressures, look at the way even Wenger, Clough Snr and Ferguson were ruined healthwise.

I think it took courage to stick his core beliefs. Where so many others including Ancelotti have morphed into playing the percentages, getting the ball in the mixer, mass defence, teams of giants to roughhouse the opposition, cheating, coaching diving and screaming. Anything to carve out wins and draws.


No one I hope undervalues the bravery of the armed forces, police, paramedics, doctors and nurses, especially during the pandemic for the latter groups. But Potter in a different way has been brave within his profession and role.

The point is that he really is no braver than any other manager, he is merely playing a style and type of football dictated by the size of our club and it's budget and the players we have. The managers of Fulham, West Brom and until recently, Sheffield Utd all do the same with the cards they are dealt and their persevere with what is going to give them enough of an edge to get 4th from bottom. I really feel that " Phenomenal Bravery " is more than a touch inflated in this case. It's football, it works or it doesn't work.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Yes, he's certainly made some brave decisions ('brave' when they come off, foolhardy when they don't, of course!) - but 'phenomenal courage' does seem a bit OTT; it's not as if he's facing any real life threatening danger.

You can just hear the conversation at the bar:

"Why did you get your VC medal"?
"I ran through a hail of bullets and pulled a man from a burning car"
"Why did you get yours Graham"?
"I picked an extra forward and told them to pass it around a bit"

 

[Weststander]

swansman's 2nd account?

Not that I disagree

Graham Potter's third account.

 

[Weststander]

The point is that he really is no braver than any other manager, he is merely playing a style and type of football dictated by the size of our club and it's budget and the players we have. The managers of Fulham, West Brom and until recently, Sheffield Utd all do the same with the cards they are dealt and their persevere with what is going to give them enough of an edge to get 4th from bottom. I really feel that " Phenomenal Bravery " is more than a touch inflated in this case. It's football, it works or it doesn't work.

I disagree.

He could've abandoned the passing game with large numbers pushed forward, resorting instead to a mass defence and trying to chisel out points.

I don't think he faces a diktat from above, instead he's very much part of a collaborative approach.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

This is specifically about the bravery of a manager with many question marks over them, at his first job in the top tier, without a squad of instantly recognisable names and performers, playing the game in an innovative, creative, progressive style.

You take a step back from the instant criticism of 'we are in the same place in the table' (if you can...), and whether you agree or not, it takes a HUGE dose of courage in a must win game against a team 1 point below you to try something like playing your strikers out wide, bring wing backs through the centre etc. That's some balls that is. Goes wrong and you are taking hell of a lot of flak.

I think it is fairly easy to take the Allardyce, Hodgson, Dyche, Bruce even Smith and Moyes approach of practicalities and probabilities over creativity and intent. Clearly for Hodgson and Dyche it has paid off season after season. You know what you're going to get. Burnley are a success story, this isn't a thread to undermine their approach, because it's their way, and proved to work. However it is a repeatable model, one that Bruce simply tried to emulate at the weekend. Sit deep in numbers, hope to nick a goal, just contain the opposition. I felt that had Moyes had a bit more courage in him, they would have beaten Arsenal, instead panic set in and that core instinct of holding on to what they had.

To go into games against Man City, Spurs, Liverpool, Leicester - the front runners this season, and others like Chelsea and Man Utd earlier, and take the game to them, regardless of results, has been - courageous. It's simply not often done by a team in our position.

That courage is what I think will imprint on the players in the long run. The manager's faith in them to play with freedom, expression, to take the game to any opposition will reap eventual rewards. Not a fly by season of finishing 9th then getting relegated the year after, but a transformation of belief throughout the club.

I don't hold that Potter is immune from criticism, or doesn't make mistakes, when you innovate, try new things, then you are always at risk of it going wrong. No successful innovation started without risk, success makes it seem obvious, but it starts with a moment of courage that you are doing something right.

That's why much of the criticism Potter faces is understandable. We haven't been infallible this season. Unusual choices of substitution appeared to make us worse not better, certain tactics led to what felt like preventable goals against us. However, for much of the time, it's been exciting to watch. You can tell when you listen to pundits, commentators, neutrals, we're a good game of football to tune into, there is plenty to talk about, you don't know what shape we're playing even 5 or 10mins into the game. It's fascinating, exciting - terrifying when you need the points.

It's all about courage though, and the foundations are definitely being laid on a club that 'believes' it belongs at this level. It's easy to say it, it's a huge challenge to believe it.

Well I completely agree with you, but I'm also going to use the point of your post to beat Potter with as well. Courage to change the style, blood youngsters, try different formations throughout a difficult premier league season, and to take on the big boys - absolutely and its brilliant and its why I am a huge fan of him.

Courage to keep on doing all that forward pressing and front-foot play when we go 1-0 up - not so much, and thats been my biggest bug-bear. So often we surrender the style of play that has seen us dominant up to that point in a match, and switch to a more passive version that hasn't worked as well. Leicester was the first time I really wavered a little on Potter, we went 1-0 up by absolutely harrassing their team with our press, we had them scared and on the back foot and they were making mistakes as a result. We didn't have the courage to keep doing it, we dropped off, stopped supporting in numbers, challenged less, allowing them to grow in confidence and their individual class won out in the end.

I like to think GP has gained courage from that defeat to continue being in teams faces when we're winning. Southampton away was the first time I have really seen it from us (aside from the two Newcastle games, but any old park side could beat them), not so much after the first goal but definitely after the second, and I hope to see more of that. Holding on to a 1-0 is needed if we are a real underdog (such as at Anfield), if we're off our game, sure, and in the last 20, sure, and is what we should have done against WBA at home. I think that particular equaliser scarred him a bit, because on that day he tried to retake control by changing our defensive setup which then directly led to the equaliser. Unfortunately he has sat on leads from an early stage frequently since then. So courage, yes, a good way to look at it.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Connolly probably is, and will never be, good enough...

Disagree. I think there are probably maturity and confidence issues that need to be resolved.

But, his all round game is pretty good, he finds himself in brilliant positions and has got pace to burn. His ‘right place-right time’ radar is Premier League level but his finishing is League Two at the moment.

A prescription of one Championship loan season with a team like Fulham with at least one goal every 180mins should do the lad the world of good!

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Well I completely agree with you, but I'm also going to use the point of your post to beat Potter with as well. Courage to change the style, blood youngsters, try different formations throughout a difficult premier league season, and to take on the big boys - absolutely and its brilliant and its why I am a huge fan of him.

Courage to keep on doing all that forward pressing and front-foot play when we go 1-0 up - not so much, and thats been my biggest bug-bear. So often we surrender the style of play that has seen us dominant up to that point in a match, and switch to a more passive version that hasn't worked as well. Leicester was the first time I really wavered a little on Potter, we went 1-0 up by absolutely harrassing their team with our press, we had them scared and on the back foot and they were making mistakes as a result. We didn't have the courage to keep doing it, we dropped off, stopped supporting in numbers, challenged less, allowing them to grow in confidence and their individual class won out in the end.

I like to think GP has gained courage from that defeat to continue being in teams faces when we're winning. Southampton away was the first time I have really seen it from us (aside from the two Newcastle games, but any old park side could beat them), not so much after the first goal but definitely after the second, and I hope to see more of that. Holding on to a 1-0 is needed if we are a real underdog (such as at Anfield), if we're off our game, sure, and in the last 20, sure, and is what we should have done against WBA at home. I think that particular equaliser scarred him a bit, because on that day he tried to retake control by changing our defensive setup which then directly led to the equaliser. Unfortunately he has sat on leads from an early stage frequently since then. So courage, yes, a good way to look at it.

Not sure that is always an 'intent' though, think players are often responsible for sitting on a lead, you can often see managers shouting till their blue in the face trying to get their team up the pitch - Arteta is great to watch in that regard. If we take going 1 up at Burnley, we still attacked after being 1 up, however after HT Burnley came out and we struggled to live with them. It can happen. Not sure it was tactical on our part, the opposition came at us and we struggled, can't always blame tactics for that. We sat in the Leeds game I bit I thought, but only after we had seemingly exhausted ourselves looking for a 2nd, we kept a threat in that game though. Did you have any particular games in mind where we took the lead but clearly and tactically sat on it, I suppose subs are often an indicator of that.

 

[Seasider78]

I think he showed great belief to continue with the approach and philosophy when we were struggling and it came good and in hindsight you have to respect him for that. He has kept the players with him throughout as well which also says a lot about their respect for him and belief in the project.

However the margins are so tight at this level if we hadn’t turned in results in the Spurs and Liverpool you could easily see a situation where doubt starts creeping in and we would be on a very different trajectory and the approach coming under question.

Fortunately the club held their nerve and coming through that and getting the results will strengthen the belief in approach for all involved. For me I have seen enough so say Potter could take us to the next level the question is can we give him the tools to do it

 

[vagabond]

Sanchez - out of the blue, 18 games and into the Spain national team.
Alzate - From Orient to 31 appearances and 4 for Colombia
White - ever present, hot property
Mac Allister - Eased into the Premier League and now one of our top players, 22 years old.
Moder & Zeqiri - watch this space

Not including Lamptey because he was quality before he got here.

Connolly probably is, and will never be, good enough...

Potter's done a phenomenal job in bringing those four players through - they're probably worth more than £100m all together.

He's also done a great job with Biss, who has come leaps and bounds under Potter, especially this season.

And to add to this the re-defining of more established squad players. Solly, reborn as a wing back and one of our best performers this season. Ditto Gross who has moved into deeper roles to impact games in a different way.

 

[vagabond]

Depends on your definition of " courage" really? I think health are workers still working with Covid patients while having limited or faulty PPE was a tad more courageous. Or, our soldiers braving the horrors of Afghanistan for £20k a year is pretty courageous.
Not so courageous to play a certain way as a football team and get paid off a Million or so if it goes wrong.

Ludicrous post. We all know there’s more life and death situations than football, but if we followed that rule then we’d never discuss anything here.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Ludicrous post. We all know there’s more life and death situations than football, but if we followed that rule then we’d never discuss anything here.