[Albion] Potter's Phenomenal Courage

[KeegansHairPiece]

This is specifically about the bravery of a manager with many question marks over them, at his first job in the top tier, without a squad of instantly recognisable names and performers, playing the game in an innovative, creative, progressive style.

You take a step back from the instant criticism of 'we are in the same place in the table' (if you can...), and whether you agree or not, it takes a HUGE dose of courage in a must win game against a team 1 point below you to try something like playing your strikers out wide, bring wing backs through the centre etc. That's some balls that is. Goes wrong and you are taking hell of a lot of flak.

I think it is fairly easy to take the Allardyce, Hodgson, Dyche, Bruce even Smith and Moyes approach of practicalities and probabilities over creativity and intent. Clearly for Hodgson and Dyche it has paid off season after season. You know what you're going to get. Burnley are a success story, this isn't a thread to undermine their approach, because it's their way, and proved to work. However it is a repeatable model, one that Bruce simply tried to emulate at the weekend. Sit deep in numbers, hope to nick a goal, just contain the opposition. I felt that had Moyes had a bit more courage in him, they would have beaten Arsenal, instead panic set in and that core instinct of holding on to what they had.

To go into games against Man City, Spurs, Liverpool, Leicester - the front runners this season, and others like Chelsea and Man Utd earlier, and take the game to them, regardless of results, has been - courageous. It's simply not often done by a team in our position.

That courage is what I think will imprint on the players in the long run. The manager's faith in them to play with freedom, expression, to take the game to any opposition will reap eventual rewards. Not a fly by season of finishing 9th then getting relegated the year after, but a transformation of belief throughout the club.

I don't hold that Potter is immune from criticism, or doesn't make mistakes, when you innovate, try new things, then you are always at risk of it going wrong. No successful innovation started without risk, success makes it seem obvious, but it starts with a moment of courage that you are doing something right.

That's why much of the criticism Potter faces is understandable. We haven't been infallible this season. Unusual choices of substitution appeared to make us worse not better, certain tactics led to what felt like preventable goals against us. However, for much of the time, it's been exciting to watch. You can tell when you listen to pundits, commentators, neutrals, we're a good game of football to tune into, there is plenty to talk about, you don't know what shape we're playing even 5 or 10mins into the game. It's fascinating, exciting - terrifying when you need the points.

It's all about courage though, and the foundations are definitely being laid on a club that 'believes' it belongs at this level. It's easy to say it, it's a huge challenge to believe it.

 

[dazzer6666]

This is specifically about the bravery of a manager with many question marks over them, at his first job in the top tier, without a squad of instantly recognisable names and performers, playing the game in an innovative, creative, progressive style.

You take a step back from the instant criticism of 'we are in the same place in the table' (if you can...), and whether you agree or not, it takes a HUGE dose of courage in a must win game against a team 1 point below you to try something like playing your strikers out wide, bring wing backs through the centre etc. That's some balls that is. Goes wrong and you are taking hell of a lot of flak.

I think it is fairly easy to take the Allardyce, Hodgson, Dyche, Bruce even Smith and Moyes approach of practicalities and probabilities over creativity and intent. Clearly for Hodgson and Dyche it has paid off season after season. You know what you're going to get. Burnley are a success story, this isn't a thread to undermine their approach, because it's their way, and proved to work. However it is a repeatable model, one that Bruce simply tried to emulate at the weekend. Sit deep in numbers, hope to nick a goal, just contain the opposition.

To go into games against Man City, Spurs, Liverpool, Leicester - the front runners this season, and others like Chelsea and Man Utd earlier, and take the game to them, regardless of results, has been - courageous. It's simply not often done by a team in our position.

That courage is what I think will imprint on the players in the long run. The manager's faith in them to play with freedom, expression, to take the game to any opposition will reap eventual rewards. Not a fly by season of finishing 9th then getting relegated the year after, but a transformation of belief throughout the club.

I don't hold that Potter is immune from criticism, or doesn't make mistakes, when you innovate, try new things, then you are always at risk of it going wrong. No successful innovation started without risk, success makes it seem obvious, but it starts with a moment of courage that you are doing something right.

That's why much of the criticism Potter faces is understandable. We haven't been infallible this season. Unusual choices of substitution appeared to make us worse not better, certain tactics led to what felt like preventable goals against us. However, for much of the time, it's been exciting to watch. You can tell when you listen to pundits, commentators, neutrals, we're a good game of football to tune into, there is plenty to talk about, you don't know what shape we're playing even 5 or 10mins into the game. It's fascinating, exciting - terrifying when you need the points.

It's all about courage though, and the foundations are definitely being laid on a club that 'believes' it belongs at this level. It's easy to say it, it's a huge challenge to believe it.

So, still fence for you then ?

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

So, still fence for you then ?

 

[Icy Gull]

Poyet with balls and more imagination imo

Falls well short of Gus in pre and post match interviews and perceived coolness (as in groovy not character trait) though

 

[blue-shifted]

Yes OP.

To believe in and stick to his methods the way he does, especially in the face of some obscene luck and ridiculous results this season, takes huge belief

Notable also that we've attacked the top teams all season and not been thrashed once.

Also, a word must be said to the players. The bravery they've shown to stick to the methods even when they haven't worked is notable and shows togetherness. They know if they fail taking a risk, their manager will have their back, so again credit to GP for setting the right culture

 

[AmexRuislip]

This is specifically about the bravery of a manager with many question marks over them, at his first job in the top tier, without a squad of instantly recognisable names and performers, playing the game in an innovative, creative, progressive style.

You take a step back from the instant criticism of 'we are in the same place in the table' (if you can...), and whether you agree or not, it takes a HUGE dose of courage in a must win game against a team 1 point below you to try something like playing your strikers out wide, bring wing backs through the centre etc. That's some balls that is. Goes wrong and you are taking hell of a lot of flak.

I think it is fairly easy to take the Allardyce, Hodgson, Dyche, Bruce even Smith and Moyes approach of practicalities and probabilities over creativity and intent. Clearly for Hodgson and Dyche it has paid off season after season. You know what you're going to get. Burnley are a success story, this isn't a thread to undermine their approach, because it's their way, and proved to work. However it is a repeatable model, one that Bruce simply tried to emulate at the weekend. Sit deep in numbers, hope to nick a goal, just contain the opposition. I felt that had Moyes had a bit more courage in him, they would have beaten Arsenal, instead panic set in and that core instinct of holding on to what they had.

To go into games against Man City, Spurs, Liverpool, Leicester - the front runners this season, and others like Chelsea and Man Utd earlier, and take the game to them, regardless of results, has been - courageous. It's simply not often done by a team in our position.

That courage is what I think will imprint on the players in the long run. The manager's faith in them to play with freedom, expression, to take the game to any opposition will reap eventual rewards. Not a fly by season of finishing 9th then getting relegated the year after, but a transformation of belief throughout the club.

I don't hold that Potter is immune from criticism, or doesn't make mistakes, when you innovate, try new things, then you are always at risk of it going wrong. No successful innovation started without risk, success makes it seem obvious, but it starts with a moment of courage that you are doing something right.

That's why much of the criticism Potter faces is understandable. We haven't been infallible this season. Unusual choices of substitution appeared to make us worse not better, certain tactics led to what felt like preventable goals against us. However, for much of the time, it's been exciting to watch. You can tell when you listen to pundits, commentators, neutrals, we're a good game of football to tune into, there is plenty to talk about, you don't know what shape we're playing even 5 or 10mins into the game. It's fascinating, exciting - terrifying when you need the points.

It's all about courage though, and the foundations are definitely being laid on a club that 'believes' it belongs at this level. It's easy to say it, it's a huge challenge to believe it.

Morning Pep

 

[Saladpack Seagull]

Interesting and well-reasoned piece KHP.

 

[Napper]

Most teams in the prem do set out to win and have a go now. The exceptions being Sheff Utd , West Brom , Newcastle , Burnley and Palace.

The rest will always have a go so then comes down to quality.

Its good we have the belief that we are better than our position suggests and nice to know we will have a go in the 6 pointers as nothing worse in those games than Hughtons old approach of stay in the game.

It can change quickly though , look at Bournemouth.

If we stay up then Need to add a bit more quality in the summer to hopefully not have another season battling the drop

 

[nickbrighton]

Can not really disagree with any of that OP. Whether you like or dislike his tactics and approach to the game, (Im a BIG fan) it certainly takes some balls to stick to it, his and Tony's to be honest. Pewrsonally although there have been periods of immense frustration as the goal posts, superhuman saves, and some inexplicable misses prevents the goals flowing, I have enjoyed the football more this season than anytime since promotion

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Most teams in the prem do set out to win and have a go now. The exceptions being Sheff Utd , West Brom , Newcastle , Burnley and Palace.

The rest will always have a go so then comes down to quality.

Its good we have the belief that we are better than our position suggests and nice to know we will have a go in the 6 pointers as nothing worse in those games than Hughtons old approach of stay in the game.

It can change quickly though , look at Bournemouth.

If we stay up then Need to add a bit more quality in the summer to hopefully not have another season battling the drop

Bournemouth is a great example, as are Watford. It can happen, there’s only 7 teams that haven’t been relegated in the recent past. What are the lessons to learn from them. Did Bournemouth just keep trying the same things and got worked out in the end? Do you need to continually evolve. Players coming through and recruitment are massive to that. I always wondered if both Bournemouth and Watford started to think they were established members of the PL without properly believing it.

I think back to Troy Deeney during a good spell saying the change of manager never effected them as the structure was in place, the players understood etc. The wheels then came off. A manager merry-go-round is never going to give you any real stability.

I would add that I think Villa, Everton and West Ham all play with a degree of caution. Each team has had some absolute bang in form attacking players, however take Villa for instance, Grealish out they've looked ordinary, and came to us showing very little attacking intent.

 

[Badger Boy]

I do commend his courage for playing Sanchez (although presumably he was standing out in training long before he played), but I'm not sure I fully buy into the myth that he's a master at bringing through younger players. Alzate has been put in the shade for no obvious reason. Connolly benefited from there being no Welbeck in the squad last season. Lamptey is an extraordinary talent who any manager who pick having been able to pick him up (maybe Potter had a role in identifying the player in the first instance, if so he gets respect for that too!). Other than those, I'm not sure there's too much more praise due. Ben White was brilliant last season and was always going to be playing in the PL this. Khadra's injury came at a bad time for him, I really like what we saw at City of him. Zeqiri has had a couple of games as well.

What am I missing? I do agree we've played nice football pretty much all season but I would question some of the basics of the team. Some of it isn't Potter's fault (he doesn't miss the chances being created), but some of it is (defensive set piece organisation).

Overall, I think managers should be given the time to manage their team. We're obviously a club looking to build, the infrastructure changes over the last 10 years are incredible. We've made the PL and we're looking good for a 5th straight season in the top flight for the first time. We have a young manager with new ideas and a man in Ashworth who seems to know what he's doing in terms of recruitment and longer term squad building and planning. The future is bright but we should never take our eye off the present.

 

[Hugo Rune]

These crunch games almost always finish as a draw or a 1-0 victory and are usually a lot more tense than they are exciting.

Potter’s courage and belief in his team and methods was extraordinary. His tactics were a different level to anything poor Bruce could cope with. There was an awful lot of sneering at Pep Guardiola when he declared Potter the best English manager; perhaps he knew what he was taking about?

The Potter Out Campaign will rumble on regardless but I really enjoyed the dissecting of tactics on the TogetherBHA podcast as [MENTION=37204]theviper[/MENTION] analysed the astonishing WM formation whilst mentioning it’s 1920’s routes.

 

[Gwylan]

Bournemouth is a great example, as are Watford. It can happen, there’s only 7 teams that haven’t been relegated in the recent past. What are the lessons to learn from them. Did Bournemouth just keep trying the same things and got worked out in the end? Do you need to continually evolve.

Bournemouth's problem was a pretty poor defence. They conceded a hell of a lot of goals. There are only eight teams who have conceded fewer goals than us this season (and I bet if we looked at our record since Big Bob took over, we may be even better). And that's despite us missing three of our first choice back five for several games.

Smug Eddie had a good attacking set-up at Plucky but let in too many goals to take the benefit. Not many teams were looking to snap their defenders (Ake aside) when they went down. If we were relegated, we'd have PL teams lining up for White, Webster and Lamptey (and possibly March and Sanchez too). Dunk may be too old but if he were a year or two younger, he'd be in demand too.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Bournemouth's problem was a pretty poor defence. They conceded a hell of a lot of goals. There are only eight teams who have conceded fewer goals than us this season (and I bet if we looked at our record since Big Bob took over, we may be even better). And that's despite us missing three of our first choice back five for several games.

Smug Eddie had a good attacking set-up at Plucky but let in too many goals to take the benefit. Not many teams were looking to snap their defenders (Ake aside) when they went down. If we were relegated, we'd have PL teams lining up for White, Webster and Lamptey (and possibly March and Sanchez too). Dunk may be too old but if he were a year or two younger, he'd be in demand too.

Our highest transfer fee paid to date is still for a centre half isn't it? And we fought tooth and nail to keep a centre half valued at a similar amount. Veltman and Lamptey also suggest we're continuing to invest wisely in this area. March also been converted from average PL winger to a high performing wing back. It is an interesting point. You can't be an attacking team without having some quality at the back. We've conceded fewer goals than the rest of the bottom half of the table, same number as Liverpool.

 

[vegster]

This is specifically about the bravery of a manager with many question marks over them, at his first job in the top tier, without a squad of instantly recognisable names and performers, playing the game in an innovative, creative, progressive style.

You take a step back from the instant criticism of 'we are in the same place in the table' (if you can...), and whether you agree or not, it takes a HUGE dose of courage in a must win game against a team 1 point below you to try something like playing your strikers out wide, bring wing backs through the centre etc. That's some balls that is. Goes wrong and you are taking hell of a lot of flak.

I think it is fairly easy to take the Allardyce, Hodgson, Dyche, Bruce even Smith and Moyes approach of practicalities and probabilities over creativity and intent. Clearly for Hodgson and Dyche it has paid off season after season. You know what you're going to get. Burnley are a success story, this isn't a thread to undermine their approach, because it's their way, and proved to work. However it is a repeatable model, one that Bruce simply tried to emulate at the weekend. Sit deep in numbers, hope to nick a goal, just contain the opposition. I felt that had Moyes had a bit more courage in him, they would have beaten Arsenal, instead panic set in and that core instinct of holding on to what they had.

To go into games against Man City, Spurs, Liverpool, Leicester - the front runners this season, and others like Chelsea and Man Utd earlier, and take the game to them, regardless of results, has been - courageous. It's simply not often done by a team in our position.

That courage is what I think will imprint on the players in the long run. The manager's faith in them to play with freedom, expression, to take the game to any opposition will reap eventual rewards. Not a fly by season of finishing 9th then getting relegated the year after, but a transformation of belief throughout the club.

I don't hold that Potter is immune from criticism, or doesn't make mistakes, when you innovate, try new things, then you are always at risk of it going wrong. No successful innovation started without risk, success makes it seem obvious, but it starts with a moment of courage that you are doing something right.

That's why much of the criticism Potter faces is understandable. We haven't been infallible this season. Unusual choices of substitution appeared to make us worse not better, certain tactics led to what felt like preventable goals against us. However, for much of the time, it's been exciting to watch. You can tell when you listen to pundits, commentators, neutrals, we're a good game of football to tune into, there is plenty to talk about, you don't know what shape we're playing even 5 or 10mins into the game. It's fascinating, exciting - terrifying when you need the points.

It's all about courage though, and the foundations are definitely being laid on a club that 'believes' it belongs at this level. It's easy to say it, it's a huge challenge to believe it.

Depends on your definition of " courage" really? I think health are workers still working with Covid patients while having limited or faulty PPE was a tad more courageous. Or, our soldiers braving the horrors of Afghanistan for £20k a year is pretty courageous.
Not so courageous to play a certain way as a football team and get paid off a Million or so if it goes wrong.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Most teams in the prem do set out to win and have a go now. The exceptions being Sheff Utd , West Brom , Newcastle , Burnley and Palace.

The rest will always have a go so then comes down to quality.

Its good we have the belief that we are better than our position suggests and nice to know we will have a go in the 6 pointers as nothing worse in those games than Hughtons old approach of stay in the game.
It can change quickly though , look at Bournemouth.

If we stay up then Need to add a bit more quality in the summer to hopefully not have another season battling the drop

Whilst I agree this is true, it does also miss one of the key points why Potter is in place at the club.
Any of the other managers with PL experience could keep us up by just looking to buy in better players every season.
It isn't sustainable unless you can generate revenue from player sales.

His main job is to improve our players, increase the market value of the squad, so we have, or can invest in better quality players.

 

[Skaville]

A pedant writes....

Depends on your definition of " courage" really? I think health are workers still working with Covid patients while having limited or faulty PPE was a tad more courageous. Or, our soldiers braving the horrors of Afghanistan for £20k a year is pretty courageous.
Not so courageous to play a certain way as a football team and get paid off a Million or so if it goes wrong.

 

[KeegansHairPiece]

Depends on your definition of " courage" really? I think health are workers still working with Covid patients while having limited or faulty PPE was a tad more courageous. Or, our soldiers braving the horrors of Afghanistan for £20k a year is pretty courageous.
Not so courageous to play a certain way as a football team and get paid off a Million or so if it goes wrong.

Well, my definition of courage is whatever is the context. It might be courageous for someone with a fear of enclosed spaces to get into a lift. I'm not really sure you can judge courage purely on threat to life or safety.

A dictionary definition of courage: the ability to do something that frightens one

If you're limiting courage to your definition of bravery, or threat to life / safety, then it becomes a much more limited word than it really is. I would have thought it's pretty damn obvious in the context I have used it, that courage in this context is to do something that might lead to failure. I doubt anyone but you thought I was using courage in the same context as a nurse or soldier.

 

[Weststander]

Bournemouth's problem was a pretty poor defence. They conceded a hell of a lot of goals. There are only eight teams who have conceded fewer goals than us this season (and I bet if we looked at our record since Big Bob took over, we may be even better). And that's despite us missing three of our first choice back five for several games.

Smug Eddie had a good attacking set-up at Plucky but let in too many goals to take the benefit. Not many teams were looking to snap their defenders (Ake aside) when they went down. If we were relegated, we'd have PL teams lining up for White, Webster and Lamptey (and possibly March and Sanchez too). Dunk may be too old but if he were a year or two younger, he'd be in demand too.

And a huge number of injuries to key players in 2019/20.

 

[paulfuzz]

This is specifically about the bravery of a manager with many question marks over them, at his first job in the top tier, without a squad of instantly recognisable names and performers, playing the game in an innovative, creative, progressive style.

You take a step back from the instant criticism of 'we are in the same place in the table' (if you can...), and whether you agree or not, it takes a HUGE dose of courage in a must win game against a team 1 point below you to try something like playing your strikers out wide, bring wing backs through the centre etc. That's some balls that is. Goes wrong and you are taking hell of a lot of flak.

I think it is fairly easy to take the Allardyce, Hodgson, Dyche, Bruce even Smith and Moyes approach of practicalities and probabilities over creativity and intent. Clearly for Hodgson and Dyche it has paid off season after season. You know what you're going to get. Burnley are a success story, this isn't a thread to undermine their approach, because it's their way, and proved to work. However it is a repeatable model, one that Bruce simply tried to emulate at the weekend. Sit deep in numbers, hope to nick a goal, just contain the opposition. I felt that had Moyes had a bit more courage in him, they would have beaten Arsenal, instead panic set in and that core instinct of holding on to what they had.

To go into games against Man City, Spurs, Liverpool, Leicester - the front runners this season, and others like Chelsea and Man Utd earlier, and take the game to them, regardless of results, has been - courageous. It's simply not often done by a team in our position.

That courage is what I think will imprint on the players in the long run. The manager's faith in them to play with freedom, expression, to take the game to any opposition will reap eventual rewards. Not a fly by season of finishing 9th then getting relegated the year after, but a transformation of belief throughout the club.

I don't hold that Potter is immune from criticism, or doesn't make mistakes, when you innovate, try new things, then you are always at risk of it going wrong. No successful innovation started without risk, success makes it seem obvious, but it starts with a moment of courage that you are doing something right.

That's why much of the criticism Potter faces is understandable. We haven't been infallible this season. Unusual choices of substitution appeared to make us worse not better, certain tactics led to what felt like preventable goals against us. However, for much of the time, it's been exciting to watch. You can tell when you listen to pundits, commentators, neutrals, we're a good game of football to tune into, there is plenty to talk about, you don't know what shape we're playing even 5 or 10mins into the game. It's fascinating, exciting - terrifying when you need the points.

It's all about courage though, and the foundations are definitely being laid on a club that 'believes' it belongs at this level. It's easy to say it, it's a huge challenge to believe it.

In the words of Thomas Edison: "I DIDN'T FAIL. I JUST FOUND 2,000 WAYS NOT TO MAKE A LIGHTBULB; I ONLY NEEDED TO FIND ONE WAY TO MAKE IT WORK."