[News] Post Office Scandal -

[slimes]

At least the guy knows how to use a printing and shredding machine.

 

[Bodian]

I heard someone employed by the PO today claim that a word file, documenting wrongdoing in 2010, that had been saved to a computer, could not have been saved by him because he did not know how to save word documents. At the time. As far as he can recall.

The people on R5 at the time reviewing proceedings were openly laughing at this.

That was Jamail Singh - the Post Office LAWYER on the stand today. I'm not sure how stupid he thinks the rest of us are but the idea that a highly paid professional lawyer doesn't know how to save an MS Office file is farcical. The bloke is a grade A corrupt, lying cvnt.

He also printed it out. But his evidence is that he may well not have actually read the email that he saved to his hard drive and printed out.....

 

[slimes]

 

[Iggle Piggle]

False evidence by Post Office’s expert contradicted his own report

Expert suggested bug fix which would alter data without branch knowing, but told court that was impossible.

www.bbc.com

This BBC report which suggests data could be changed remotely, something the PO went along with & lawyers knew about even as they sent people to jail.

Having read that, it's the phraseology that confuses here. As myself and others have said, remote access has to be a thing. Remote unaudited access to change records is something else.

All roads lead to Mr Jenkins it seems from what I've read. His evidence is when we really need the popcorn.

 

[Easy 10]

This has totally exposed what a huge, grubby, arse-covering exercise the PO and its lawyers embarked on, whilst fully in the knowledge that as a direct result of their deception and lies, innocent postmasters were losing their livelihoods, and some going to prison.

There HAS to be lawyers disbarred, criminal convictions and jail time for the scum who were directly responsible for this.

 

[Pevenseagull]

Jesus f***ing Christ.

There's some ****s out there.

 

[clapham_gull]

Those of a left leaning persuasion (I include myself in that) just have to accept that within the "public" services there is a level of institutionalisation that leads to events like this.

From the outside it looks like conspiracy, but internally it would be that's just the way we do things round here.

I don't blame the politicians at the time, the Post Office Senior management had learnt over years how to run rings round them.

Probably needs to run as some form of cooperative with independent oversight.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Those of a left leaning persuasion (I include myself in that) just have to accept that within the "public" services there is a level of institutionalisation that leads to events like this.

From the outside it looks like conspiracy, but internally it would be that's just the way we do things round here.

I don't blame the politicians at the time, the Post Office Senior management had learnt over years how to run rings round them.

Probably needs to run as some form of cooperative with independent oversight.

I think it is a sort of malaise, but at some point you do need to think “is this right” and what is my moral compass? There is a line between maximising profits and going with the flow and doing what is actually right.

 

[herecomesaregular]

I know I shouldn't be surprised... but I still am surprised.... that the CE for 7 years was a fecking priest. Wtf is wrong with these people? Surely every time there was a change of appointment near/at the top of the company there was an opportunity to say... this stops now. Shameless cvnts. I wonder if it all gets blamed on Jenkins though, as if no one else is responsible.

 

[Easy 10]

Those of a left leaning persuasion (I include myself in that) just have to accept that within the "public" services there is a level of institutionalisation that leads to events like this.

From the outside it looks like conspiracy, but internally it would be that's just the way we do things round here.

I don't blame the politicians at the time, the Post Office Senior management had learnt over years how to run rings round them.

Probably needs to run as some form of cooperative with independent oversight.

I disagree, we don't just have to accept that at all - it is patently completely and utterly unacceptable, no matter what direction your own leanings might be.

Purgery has been committed. People have knowingly lied in order to wrongly prosecute innocent sub-postmasters, to save their own skins. If Alan Bates had just accepted that institutionalisation was just "one of those things" that goes on, then the filth who committed this catastrophic travesty would've got away with it.

 

[Pevenseagull]

I know I shouldn't be surprised... but I still am surprised.... that the CE for 7 years was a fecking priest. Wtf is wrong with these people? Surely every time there was a change of appointment near/at the top of the company there was an opportunity to say... this stops now. Shameless cvnts. I wonder if it all gets blamed on Jenkins though, as if no one else is responsible.

Peter Ball was a f***ing Bishop.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

I wonder if it all gets blamed on Jenkins though, as if no one else is responsible.

Jenkins isn't without fault for sure - he is potentially up for perjury after all - but I suspect he is a tecchie in over his head. I once worked on an IT system (to be crystal clear it wasn't horizon or anything like it) whereby the customer made us go live even though if wasn't ready. This was merely to satisfy his own ego despite it failing just about every test we ran on it. It was an absolute shitshow.

It's that type of person that is the real villain that will probably wander away scot free. We will probably never know who that even was.

 

[clapham_gull]

I disagree, we don't just have to accept that at all - it is patently completely and utterly unacceptable, no matter what direction your own leanings might be.

Purgery has been committed. People have knowingly lied in order to wrongly prosecute innocent sub-postmasters, to save their own skins. If Alan Bates had just accepted that institutionalisation was just "one of those things" that goes on, then the filth who committed this catastrophic travesty would've got away with it.

I think either my language was wrong or you misinterpreted what I said.

The point I was trying to make is this behaviour becomes "normalised", my personal shock was the behaviour and evidence of the investigators.

What did their union know ?

I don't think it should be accepted as ok, I was trying to make the point that those who think that privatisation is the root of all evil need to accept that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Publicly owned entities can and do act appalling (and illegally too). That's what those you advocate (for instance) the renationalisation of the water industry and the railways need to accept.

One of the clear issues with Post Office is the chain of command. Publicly owned, but independent enough to run rings those nominally in charge - the politicians.

Alan Bates thinks the Post Office should be broken up and sold off and I agree with him. If we didn't know what we know now, there would be much gnashing of teeth from many (including myself) about another bit of the family silver being chipped off so some fat shareholders can reduce services to make a fat profit. The reality being that since the Post Office was publicly owned and potentially institutionally corrupt, it got away with things it probably wouldn't in private hands.

I also think very very strongly there should be criminal convictions albeit with the acknowledgement that with bits of the public service it's like trying to hammer a jelly to a wall since it can be always someone else's fault.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

I heard someone employed by the PO today claim that a word file, documenting wrongdoing in 2010, that had been saved to a computer, could not have been saved by him because he did not know how to save word documents. At the time. As far as he can recall.

The people on R5 at the time reviewing proceedings were openly laughing at this.

Not just someone Harry, that was Jarnail Singh. The top lawyer who typed that 'defendants would get hold of their MP and result in copulation. He may have meant capitulation.

 

[HyperTony]

A new low today, the senior PO bosses response to the suicide attempt and then death of Martin Griffiths.

I did laugh when the counsel said don't answer like an automaton, I think there were sniggers from the public gallery disguised as coughs.

I'm continuing to catch up and watching Day 2 of AVdB testimony. They paid Martin Griffiths widow 140k but dressed it up as a transitional payment, in effect closing the branch. They not only tied this to an NDA, which meant the Mediation would stop for this poor souls case, they also staged the payments to "incentivise confidentiality". This is a man who was not only suspended due to losses he blamed on Horizon, he was the victim of an armed Robbery, that PO blamed him for and initially demanded he pay back 38k. They continued to chase him for a lower amount for the Robbery, alongside the "debts" associated to losses. All this in turn proved to much for guy and he took his own life.
To then show this extreme level of callousness to incentivise payments to his widow is just pure evil.

 

[South Stand Bonfire]

Not just someone Harry, that was Jarnail Singh. The top lawyer who typed that 'defendants would get hold of their MP and result in copulation. He may have meant capitulation.

Well, if it had been in a constituency in Henley then there would have been a medium risk that getting hold of their MP would indeed result in copulation.

 

[raymondo]

I heard someone employed by the PO today claim that a word file, documenting wrongdoing in 2010, that had been saved to a computer, could not have been saved by him because he did not know how to save word documents. At the time. As far as he can recall.

The people on R5 at the time reviewing proceedings were openly laughing at this.

He sounds either incapable, a stone faced lier, or both of course.

 

[raymondo]

This is explosive from the Law Gazette.

Unbelievable...what was in it for the judge?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Unbelievable...what was in it for the judge?

Whatever it might be should be investigated by the Bar Council.

 

[Seagull58]

Every system for every large corporate I've been involved in had "back door" data update access and tools for support staff.

As you say - this is completely normal.

If these access methods didn't exist then when errors occur - and all systems contain errors - then there would be no way to address and fix the incorrect data caused by the system errors.

But, as you also say, this should be limited to a small pool of staff, be fully recorded and audited.

Observing some of the public and media outrage at something I'd see as entirely normal and expected has been interesting.

Pretending that this back-end data access did not exist is not OK though, obviously.

The issue is not the "backdoor" access though, as any database has data admin tools. The issue is that they 1. denied it was possible 2. denied they had a team doing it and 3. had no audit trail of what they were doing.
I worked in IT for 25 years but never in a technical role, only business system implementation and sales, so I'm not a database expert by any stretch. However, surely Oracle and other enterprise class databases have comprehensive built-in auditing and data tracking? How else could they do rollback/rollforward data recovery?
Consequent to this, did Horizon run on a database with no audit trail or did it run on a database with an audit trail but they never disclosed this?