[News] Post Office Scandal -

[PILTDOWN MAN]

What a brash awful woman investigator being interviewed now. Wouldn't trust her as far as I could see her red face.

 

[monty uk]

Way back in the past there was a statistic that a software programmer would average 8 lines of code per day if the project was properly designed, documented and annotated. Although that was in the days of Fortran and PLM86. And they wouldn't start actually coding until well into the project.

Is this still the case?

 

[clapham_gull]

Way back in the past there was a statistic that a software programmer would average 8 lines of code per day if the project was properly designed, documented and annotated. Although that was in the days of Fortran and PLM86. And they wouldn't start actually coding until well into the project.

Is this still the case?

I think they are allowed to cut and paste 8 times from the internet these days

 

[beorhthelm]

Way back in the past there was a statistic that a software programmer would average 8 lines of code per day if the project was properly designed, documented and annotated. Although that was in the days of Fortran and PLM86. And they wouldn't start actually coding until well into the project.

Is this still the case?

with Agile you're lucky if you see design and documention. hopefully some still exists in finacial apps. coding starts once a non-technical product owner says they'd like a vaguely specificed feature. after months of this you hope it all comes together and meets a design brief that wasn't shared with the developers.

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

Way back in the past there was a statistic that a software programmer would average 8 lines of code per day if the project was properly designed, documented and annotated. Although that was in the days of Fortran and PLM86. And they wouldn't start actually coding until well into the project.

Is this still the case?

No, most commercial bespoke development follows the "Agile" methodology.

Analyst captures some requirements and logs them in JIRA.
Architect draws some joined-up pictures.
Developer creates a non-functional GUI and they put that in front of the client / customer.
Then build out from that.

Documentation is so "Waterfall"
AGILE = JFDI

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Newsnight, now with Victoria Derbyshire.

Post Offices that were victims of armed robberies (16) were told the sub postmasters had to pay back the losses!

 

[KZNSeagull]

Way back in the past there was a statistic that a software programmer would average 8 lines of code per day if the project was properly designed, documented and annotated. Although that was in the days of Fortran and PLM86. And they wouldn't start actually coding until well into the project.

Is this still the case?

Early 90's I designed and specified a system at home over a weekend, we started coding on the monday, testing started 3 weeks later and the system implemented 3 weeks after that. In all there were several thousand lines of code (COBOL). About a week later the feasibility study was released saying that the system couldn't be done!
And yes, it worked.

 

[Eeyore]

Newsnight, now with Victoria Derbyshire.

Post Offices that were victims of armed robberies (16) were told the sub postmasters had to pay back the losses!

I couldn't believe that until I looked it up.

It's true.

Bloody hell.

 

[Weststander]

Whilst this is appalling, and not unsurprising, I was worried that they would start to find 'lower level' scapegoats. Whilst coming across as scum this scandal is not this man's doing, it is due to the sociopaths higher up, but they will now happily throw this guy to the wolves, he'll potentially be on criminal charges (probably rightly so) but the real culprits will slip away to another dark boardroom.

My views exactly, social media focusing on investigating staff, who themselves were also fed a pack of lies by top level management and Fujitsu that Horizon was solid. Along with the bonus system rewarding attacks on sub-postmasters. Relatively speaking, I’ve little interest in these low level cogs in the machine.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Government were complicit in the sacking of Second Sight. BBC have obtained the unredacted minutes from "Project Sparrow":

Post Office accused of cover-up over secret Horizon documents

BBC obtains unredacted minutes showing government knew of plan to sack experts who found Horizon IT bugs.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[AIT76]

Newsnight, now with Victoria Derbyshire.

Post Offices that were victims of armed robberies (16) were told the sub postmasters had to pay back the losses!

I read about a case where a customer discovered a loophole with a business account 'paying in' card. They discovered that it also allowed cash withdrawals. Only the money wasn't taken from the customer's account and only showed up as a shortfall on Horizon.

The customer was rightly prosecuted - but it was the sub-postmaster that had to pay back the money.

 

[Milano]

Government were complicit in the sacking of Second Sight. BBC have obtained the unredacted minutes from "Project Sparrow":

Post Office accused of cover-up over secret Horizon documents

BBC obtains unredacted minutes showing government knew of plan to sack experts who found Horizon IT bugs.

www.bbc.co.uk

This has to be the start of criminal proceedings against these PO board members, implicated civil servants and if they knew what was happening between PO and victims then Fujitsu UK board too.

Paula Vennells, career wise is surely finished already, now I’d like to see financial and liberty impacts.

 

[rippleman]

The Mr Bates v PO documentary last night was interesting and interviewed some of the postmasters/mistresses (that sounds archaic) whose lives were devasted by the corruption of PO management and investigators, and those involved in writing the drama and acting in it. Over 100 new cases have come forward as a result of the drama.

The doc also links to Hillsborough, making the point that nobody has ever been held accountable (despite the inquest verdict of "unlawful killing") and the infected blood scandal where victims and their families still await justice and compensation.

Any PO manager or investigator who lied on oath resulting in a conviction must now be held to account and be charged with perjury and / or perverting the course of justice. They should pay the costs of the investigation and the compensation to the victims - not the taxpayer. If they lose their jobs and homes, I will cry me a river of crocodile tears

 

[Brovion]

The Mr Bates v PO documentary last night was interesting and interviewed some of the postmasters/mistresses (that sounds archaic) whose lives were devasted by the corruption of PO management and investigators, and those involved in writing the drama and acting in it. Over 100 new cases have come forward as a result of the drama.

The doc also links to Hillsborough, making the point that nobody has ever been held accountable (despite the inquest verdict of "unlawful killing") and the infected blood scandal where victims and their families still await justice and compensation.

Any PO manager or investigator who lied on oath resulting in a conviction must now be held to account and be charged with perjury and / or perverting the course of justice. They should pay the costs of the investigation and the compensation to the victims - not the taxpayer. If they lose their jobs and homes, I will cry me a river of crocodile tears

Indeed. What pisses me off is that people like Ed Davey have already thrown up their hands in horror and claim that they only followed the advice of their officials and experts, and if they'd known the truth blah blah blah.

Ok, fine - so you can make amends by using your influence to push and push and push and try and get some of the bastards prosecuted and proper compensation paid. We don't want fine words and apologies, we want deeds. Will we get them? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[BLOCK F]

Indeed. What pisses me off is that people like Ed Davey have already thrown up their hands in horror and claim that they only followed the advice of their officials and experts, and if they'd known the truth blah blah blah.

Ok, fine - so you can make amends by using your influence to push and push and push and try and get some of the bastards prosecuted and proper compensation paid. We don't want fine words and apologies, we want deeds. Will we get them? Somehow I doubt it.

I do hope you are wrong.
There must surely be prosecutions following on from the dreadful revelations that appear to be getting more deplorable by the day.

 

[Brovion]

I do hope you are wrong.
There must surely be prosecutions following on from the dreadful revelations that appear to be getting more deplorable by the day.

So do I mate, so do I.

 

[Talby]

My views exactly, social media focusing on investigating staff, who themselves were also fed a pack of lies by top level management and Fujitsu that Horizon was solid. Along with the bonus system rewarding attacks on sub-postmasters. Relatively speaking, I’ve little interest in these low level cogs in the machine.

Why? These people (with auditors) were the face of the PO when the subpostmasters were investigated and subsequently charge. The role of the investigator is to identify where the money went, which they simply did not do. Regardless of the pack of lies senior management may have fed them they had jobs to do.

Likewise, cross examinations that included questions like ‘are you giving money to paramilitaries?, ‘are you keeping a mistress?’ or telling people that they better confess otherwise they’ll go to prison is pretty shit.

Going through people’s houses and taking jewellery as ‘down payment/security’ is awful too.

Bottom line is that these people were personally involved in the interviewing of these innocent people.

The subpostmasters are quite clear about their views on the investigators and theirs is the view that matters, no one else’s.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Why? These people (with auditors) were the face of the PO when the subpostmasters were investigated and subsequently charge. The role of the investigator is to identify where the money went, which they simply did not do. Regardless of the pack of lies senior management may have fed them they had jobs to do.

Likewise, cross examinations that included questions like ‘are you giving money to paramilitaries?, ‘are you keeping a mistress?’ or telling people that they better confess otherwise they’ll go to prison is pretty shit.

Going through people’s houses and taking jewellery as ‘down payment/security’ is awful too.

Bottom line is that these people were personally involved in the interviewing of these innocent people.

The subpostmasters are quite clear about their views on the investigators and theirs is the view that matters, no one else’s.

The auditors only highlighted discrepancies they then passed on the information to the investigators. They wouldn't have been aware and not given clearance to get call records etc. The auditors would have been in the dark as much as the postmasters

 

[beorhthelm]

there's three phases of problem, with their own set of "people to blame". first the software deficencies, though relatively minor, given more wieght by assurances the software worked correctly. developers built to spec, their managers told some little lies to cover arse. second was the investigations, where PO inspections utterly failed to recognise a patter of problems and myopicly persecuted sub-postmasters on faith in software. thirdly the cover up, in early 2010's (though problems known before) after the Second Sight audit the PO doubles down on the earlier failure and doesn't fix as the cluster emerges.

in the first two phases it's mid to senior operational managment that are at fault. it's in the third phase it's the top level and executive management are to blame.

 

[Talby]

The auditors only highlighted discrepancies they then passed on the information to the investigators. They wouldn't have been aware and not given clearance to get call records etc. The auditors would have been in the dark as much as the postmaste

I was only highlighting them as being a ‘face’ of the PO at the local branch. But, surely the penny should have dropped at some point?