Police office stabbed and assailant shot outside Parliament, Parliament in lockdown

[Eeyore]

My problem with that is that I don't want an apology. What I want is an acknowledgement that, unlike the claims in that press release, these attacks DO have everything to do with Islam. Not their strand of Islam, I'll happily concede but it most certainly is still Islam that drives these terrorists to do the things they do. This particular terrorist was homegrown and part of the UK Muslim community. They are the best placed to stop people like him becoming radicalised and they can only do that if they admit that it's a problem.

To claim that there is no link to Islam is no more helpful than saying that all Muslims are terrorists.

But that is what they are saying- and challenging.

They are making it clear that the attacker is given to a warped ideal of religion.

If they are saying he is wrong, making public their view, and preaching a different doctrine to their thousands of members, I'm really not sure what else you want from them.

They are part of our society, they are not separate. The only 'them and us' is the terrorists we all condemn.

There are over two million Muslims in this country. Only a tiny fraction (too many) support this kind of practise. But you are directing your anger at the wrong people.

 

[Soulman]

of the tragic news of the death of PC Keith Palmer, a loyal Charlton supporter and season-ticket holder
Olly Groome reports

It is with great sadness that the club has learned of the tragic news of the death of PC Keith Palmer, a loyal Charlton supporter and season-ticket holder, who lost his life as a result of the terror incident in Westminster on Wednesday afternoon.

Keith was a familiar face at The Valley to many supporters and sat in his same East Stand seat for many years.

As an immediate tribute, a red and white scarf has been placed on his seat which will remain until the next home game on Tuesday, April 4th, while the club will discuss ways in which it can commemorate his life at the game itself.

Keith was a true hero who will be greatly missed by all the Charlton family and everyone at the club would like to offer their sincere condolences to his family and friends at this extremely difficult time.

The club also wish to extend condolences to the families of all those victims who were involved in yesterday’s incident.

 

[Buzzer]

But that is what they are saying- and challenging.

They are making it clear that the attacker is given to a warped ideal of religion.

No, you are wrong here...They are saying that there is no link to Islam and that the terrorism is not Islam. It's here in black and white.

There are over two million Muslims in this country. Only a tiny fraction (too many) support this kind of practise. But you are directing your anger at the wrong people.

Of course the terrorists are only a small fraction, I've made it clear that the strand of Islam that the people who issued this statement follow is not violent, I've said that calling all Muslims terrorists is unhelpful and I'm certainly not angry with them. Please, re-read what I wrote before you accuse me of God knows what.

 

[portslade seagull]

But that is what they are saying- and challenging.

They are making it clear that the attacker is given to a warped ideal of religion.

If they are saying he is wrong, making public their view, and preaching a different doctrine to their thousands of members, I'm really not sure what else you want from them.

They are part of our society, they are not separate. The only 'them and us' is the terrorists we all condemn.

There are over two million Muslims in this country. Only a tiny fraction (too many) support this kind of practise. But you are directing your anger at the wrong people.

Maybe if the 2 million actually reported the wayward 2% to the authorities rather than keeping quiet thing like this wouldn't happen. They need to police themselves better

 

[Eeyore]

No, you are wrong here...They are saying that there is no link to Islam and that the terrorism is not Islam. It's here in black and white.

Of course the terrorists are only a small fraction, I've made it clear that the strand of Islam that the people who issued this statement follow is not violent, I've said that calling all Muslims terrorists is unhelpful and I'm certainly not angry with them. Please, re-read what I wrote before you accuse me of God knows what.

I'm not accusing you Buzz.

When they say there is no link to Islam they are doing exactly what Catholic churches did to distance themselves from the IRA. They are saying that they are not 'real Muslims' and trying to extract themselves from the underlying motive. It's a natural response knowing they are under attack.

The problem does come from within, they know that, but they have to separate themselves from it because so many of them are accused of being part of the problem and not the solution.

One of my closest friends is a Muslim. He rationalises things quite well. But trust me, it's not easy being a Muslim right now when people, despite their own condemnation, are being viewed with suspicion at best and vitriolic rage otherwise. You don't fall into the latter category, there is no accusation. But as well as despising terrorists and wishing all hell upon them (which I do) I find myself constantly trying to protect Muslims from the fall out- because I know how difficult life is becoming for so many.

 

[Perfidious Albion]

The ideology of the attacker is unfathomable to the rest of us, but cannot be equated to the millions of peaceable British Muslims .
We also need to see the event in context, after all, the I R A bombed the Parliament building in 1974 . For around Twenty years we endured a bombing campaign from terrorists who were Irish and happened to be at least nominal Catholics.

I do not recall any anti Irish or anti Catholic feelings . Indeed , in 1990 World Cup we all cheered on R of Ireland team, Packie Bonner and all - despite I R A bombs in London that year...

I wish I knew the answer, but Islamaphobia is not it.

Incidentally , I can't help wondering why the policeman's stab vest did not save him?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The ideology of the attacker is unfathomable to the rest of us, but cannot be equated to the millions of peaceable British Muslims .
We also need to see the event in context, after all, the I R A bombed the Parliament building in 1974 . For around Twenty years we endured a bombing campaign from terrorists who were Irish and happened to be at least nominal Catholics.

I do not recall any anti Irish or anti Catholic feelings . Indeed , in 1990 World Cup we all cheered on R of Ireland team, Packie Bonner and all - despite I R A bombs in London that year...

I wish I knew the answer, but Islamaphobia is not it.

Incidentally , I can't help wondering why the policeman's stab vest did not save him?

If he was stabbed in the groin, the femural artery will be enough for him to bleed to death, poor bloke.

 

[Insel affe]

Incidentally , I can't help wondering why the policeman's stab vest did not save him?

Neck, throat, stab vest wont prevent those areas being attacked

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Maybe if the 2 million actually reported the wayward 2% to the authorities rather than keeping quiet thing like this wouldn't happen. They need to police themselves better

Some of them do, but the societies are so close knit, it is difficult to 'grass someone'.

 

[Bwian]

deleted

 

[symyjym]

This is a Muslim woman trying to justify Muhammad consummating his marriage to Aisha at age 9. It's amazing the excuses Muslims make for their prophet who is supposed to be best of all people. It is also important to note that Allah sent Muhammad a revelation endorsing the marriage.

The Marriage of Young Aisha: A Muslim Response

https://youtu.be/JuzZ16M3p4w

Does she make a good case?

Bukhari 6:298
Bukhari 7:62:88

 

[Goldstone1976]

This thread is heading towards turning into a bog standard NSC Islam-bashing/-supporting binfest. All of the others have ended up in League 2 eventually as some posters fail to restrain their language to each other and instead resort to personal abuse. In the interests of keeping a thread about the tragic and murderous events in London yesterday on the BB, could I request that that topic is the main one discussed on this thread and that we avoid this one being derailed in to the usual binfest please...

 

[Insel affe]

This thread is heading towards turning into a bog standard NSC Islam-bashing/-supporting binfest. All of the others have ended up in League 2 eventually as some posters fail to restrain their language to each other and instead resort to personal abuse. In the interests of keeping a thread about the tragic and murderous events in London yesterday on the BB, could I request that that topic is the main one discussed on this thread and that we avoid this one being derailed in to the usual binfest please...

What.....

Are you advocating the good folk of NSC break from tradition, by remaining within the realms of a sensible discussion without bigotry and hatred coming to the forefront...

How very dare you.

 

[Goldstone1976]

What.....

Are you advocating the good folk of NSC break from tradition, by remaining within the realms of a sensible discussion without bigotry and hatred coming to the forefront...

How very dare you.

I know. Hopelessly optimistic, I know...

 

[The_Viper]

This thread is heading towards turning into a bog standard NSC Islam-bashing/-supporting binfest. All of the others have ended up in League 2 eventually as some posters fail to restrain their language to each other and instead resort to personal abuse. In the interests of keeping a thread about the tragic and murderous events in London yesterday on the BB, could I request that that topic is the main one discussed on this thread and that we avoid this one being derailed in to the usual binfest please...

At the moment of the attacks everything was centered on the issue at hand and the tragedy taking place as it should be, however as these things grow old and as time passes by new evidence emerges. We already know the ins and outs of what happened yesterday and everyone is shocked and saddened by it but we naturally move on to the reasons why it happened, the ideas behind the attacker and their motives, the victims and celebrating their lives as we should and denouncing those responsible for it. When those responsible have religious or political motives for causing such atrocities it is only natural that people then take time to look at those ideologies and talk about it.

The problem isn't that people are "turning this into a binfest", the problem is that this discussion is the one we inevitably have to move onto in a lot of terrorist attacks like this of late with nothing being changed in the places where decisions are made. It leads to this division amongst people and nobody is on the "good" side. This isn't going to all blow over, it's going to get worse before it gets better but what the solution is I really have no idea. Going on like this with no real decisions or leadership though isn't helping and it's causing a lot of anger and frustration from all sides.

 

[symyjym]

I'm not accusing you Buzz.

When they say there is no link to Islam they are doing exactly what Catholic churches did to distance themselves from the IRA. They are saying that they are not 'real Muslims' and trying to extract themselves from the underlying motive. It's a natural response knowing they are under attack.

The problem does come from within, they know that, but they have to separate themselves from it because so many of them are accused of being part of the problem and not the solution.

One of my closest friends is a Muslim. He rationalises things quite well. But trust me, it's not easy being a Muslim right now when people, despite their own condemnation, are being viewed with suspicion at best and vitriolic rage otherwise. You don't fall into the latter category, there is no accusation. But as well as despising terrorists and wishing all hell upon them (which I do) I find myself constantly trying to protect Muslims from the fall out- because I know how difficult life is becoming for so many.

It sounds like your friend is a victim of Islam too and doesn't want to be entirely honest with himself. To leave Islam means rejection from family and friends so it has an emotional hold on people, so I understand that part. Can your friend discuss Islam critically? or do you avoid the discussion altogether?

 

[Wilko]

My problem with that is that I don't want an apology. What I want is an acknowledgement that, unlike the claims in that press release, these attacks DO have everything to do with Islam. Not their strand of Islam, I'll happily concede but it most certainly is still Islam that drives these terrorists to do the things they do. This particular terrorist was homegrown and part of the UK Muslim community. They are the best placed to stop people like him becoming radicalised and they can only do that if they admit that it's a problem.

To claim that there is no link to Islam is no more helpful than saying that all Muslims are terrorists.

Spot on. To claim it has NOTHING to do with Islam is ridiculous, to the people that commit these attacks it has EVERYTHING to do with Islam. We all know that these attacks are not representative of the religion as a whole, we all know it is a minority but continually saying it has nothing to do with the religion is frankly nonsense.

Perhaps a rather mundane or crass comparison could be made with football hooliganism, they are not representative of the vast majority of football fans but to say it has nothing to do with football would be utter ignorance.

 

[Goldstone1976]

At the moment of the attacks everything was centered on the issue at hand and the tragedy taking place as it should be, however as these things grow old and as time passes by new evidence emerges. We already know the ins and outs of what happened yesterday and everyone is shocked and saddened by it but we naturally move on to the reasons why it happened, the ideas behind the attacker and their motives, the victims and celebrating their lives as we should and denouncing those responsible for it. When those responsible have religious or political motives for causing such atrocities it is only natural that people then take time to look at those ideologies and talk about it.

The problem isn't that people are "turning this into a binfest", the problem is that this discussion is the one we inevitably have to move onto in a lot of terrorist attacks like this of late with nothing being changed in the places where decisions are made. It leads to this division amongst people and nobody is on the "good" side. This isn't going to all blow over, it's going to get worse before it gets better but what the solution is I really have no idea. Going on like this with no real decisions or leadership though isn't helping and it's causing a lot of anger and frustration from all sides.

You make a fair point.

I'll modify the premise of the request as follows: "as the thread moves in to discussing the motives and influences of the perpetrator, and what could/should be done about it, could I ask that people refrain from personal abuse of fellow NSC users in the event that they hold different opinions to your own. I'd remind you that many other threads discussing the topic of Islamist/ic terrorism have ended up in League 2 due to this issue, and it would be a shame if this one had the same outcome".

 

[symyjym]

Personally I don't see discussing and critisising a religion as bigoted or a phobia.

Muslims are victims of Islam. Anyone who is persuaded to carry out an attack and die for his belief in his rewards in heaven is a victim of Islam too.

 

[Giraffe]

Personally I don't see discussing and critisising a religion as bigoted or a phobia.

Muslims are victims of Islam. Anyone who is persuaded to carry out an attack and die for his belief in his rewards in heaven is a victim of Islam too.

Agreed, criticising a religion is fine. There are plenty of examples of people criticising Christianity, Catholicism etc on NSC, but what Golstone1976 is saying is if you don't agree with those views that's fine, but don't give out personal abuse to the user who says them.

NSC works best when everyone is allowed to say what they think about something without it becoming personal to the user or others. As the Brexit discussions show there are strong opinions on either side and those opinions should be respected even if they do not concur with your own.

Also if you find yourself getting cross with a view, take a break. As I did last night. And watch Beauty and the Beast (AGAIN). The world seems a nicer place with Belle