police dealing with incident on London bridge.,

[DavidinSouthampton]

There has to be a point in the future, when anyone who still believe in a god, is going to be labelled mentally ill. Because that's what it is.


mental illness
noun
a condition which causes serious disorder in a person's behaviour or thinking.


How does that not perfectly sum up religion.

As someone once said

Religion's greatest achievement is not getting people to believe in it, that's easy, it is stopping the rest of us mocking it.

There has to be a point in the future, where we can openly mock every religion that believes in a god...... hasn't there?

There are plenty of people for whom some sort of religious practice actually brings some order in to their lives.

And some enormously sane and balanced people who would profess some sort of faith. Try reading something by Rowan Williams or Jonathan Sacks. They speak a lot of sense - sacks actually has written a book called "The Dignity of Difference", which is about tolerance.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Ha. That came from Guido Fawkes!!!
The only reference to it on a google search too.

Why don't you find an official reference to that bill and confirmation that the Labour bigwigs voted against, before passing on hearsay?

What I can find for certain is that special exclusion orders were introduced in 2014/2015. So surely the former and current home secs would have been using these on all returning IS fighters, right?
Well, Theresa May and Amber Rudd have used ONE in two and a half years.

Edit: PB did your job.
So, it did exist after all. I note the House of Lords also voted against it. As, PB states, did every single Labour MP.

I found it interesting and wasn't bothered if it was anti May or anti Corbyn. For the record, I've already voted and it wasn't for Labour or Conservative.

 

[TSB]

It seems that 221 other labour MPs voted against it too, and all the SNP.

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2014-05-07&number=266&display=allvotes&sort=vote

Party Majority (Aye) Minority (No) Both Turnout
Con 264 (+1 tell) 2 0 87.8%
DUP 4 0 0 50.0%
Green 0 1 0 100.0%
Independent 0 1 0 50.0%
Lab 0 224 (+2 tell) 0 87.6%
LDem 37 (+1 tell) 1 0 69.6%
PC 0 2 0 66.7%
SDLP 0 2 0 66.7%
SNP 0 6 0 100.0%
Total: 305 239 0 85.5%

On this exact note:

The vote was passed and it became law.
Hasn't done us much good, has it?

 

[symyjym]

I take your point.

It's not a question of getting round it.
Maybe God did command Moses, but then changed his mind and his strategy when he decided to send his only begotten son......
Maybe Moses misheard, made it up or misinterpreted the message. We are talking about something that is supposed to have happened over 3000 years ago and it might have become muddled in the telling and retelling.
It doesn't overly bother me. I am not a creationist or somebody who takes everything in the Bible literally. I had a very interesting conversation recently with another preacher in the Methodist Church about whether Jesus might have been the result of the rape of Mary by a Roman Soldier - it is something I would not dismiss.

What I would treat as important is the nature of what Jesus said and taught - deliberately creating conflict with the Temple authorities (the leaders of his own Jewish religion) for their over-zealous interpretation of the Sabbath....... "am I supposed not to help somebody who needs help just because it is the Sabbath". It was the appllcation of a certain degree of common sense against the religious zealots of the day might be one way of looking at it.

I'll probably be struck down by a thunderbolt now...... such is life.

You see this is the point. You don't need to believe in God to understand the basic message of Jesus. As an atheist I believe "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", "let he without sin......" etc. In truth I think the real message of his life gets lost in Christian mythology when really he was against the harsh Mosaic Law. He questioned the Torah himself and he would be horrified knowing that Christians made him the God of the Torah.

I think Christianity undermines the historic Jesus and what really happened. It's a bit of in insult to be made something you are not. Being the son of a Roman soldier is plausible because he was considered a low ranking Jew so his birth father was certainly questioned at the time. We don't know for certain that he even existed but I think he probably did. The time and place was right for someone like him to challenge the authority at the time.

What I am saying is you can believe in Jesus the man on a mission without believing in God. Making him the God of the Torah is flawed.

 

[clarkey]

Sky News reporting police found Molotov cocktails in the back of the van.

Makes you wonder if crashing the van was unintentional and a disruption to their plan meaning they had to improvise, or they simply forgot they had them. Or they could turn out to not be Molotov cocktails of course.

The footage of the restaurant owner trying to shut the door to his restaurant as the shutter's coming down, with the attackers trying to break through the door, is truly horrifying.

It sounds as if many restaurant owners and employees in the area had had training in what to do in such a situation, and their quick thinking and lock-ins, in many cases endangering themselves, is truly incredible and inspiring.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Take a breath, people, for goodness sake.
Somebody posted something on FaceTwit, so it must be true?

It may or may not be a deliberate attack on pedestrians - in time, we will probably know. For now, all we seem to know is that pedestrians have been hit by a vehicle. That happens many times every day.

Which fvcking planet did you just land from?

I received a very measured, thoughtful, thought-provoking and respectful PM from PeterOut today. In fact, everything that my response to his post wasn't.

I won't divulge it's details here, but suffice to say I regret my response and have nothing but 100% respect and admiration for this man and all that he has done. He'll know what I mean when I say that he sets a very high bar.

Apologies PeterOut and thanks for taking the time to reply to me. I appreciate it and respect it.

 

[soistes]

An interesting twitter thread, apparently from a muslim, about how the hate preachers like Anjem Choudhary are effectively able to get the British media to do their work for them. No idea how much truth in it, but if it is true, I think it has important implications

https://twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/871829837262061568

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

You see this is the point. You don't need to believe in God to understand the basic message of Jesus. As an atheist I believe "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", "let he without sin......" etc. In truth I think the real message of his life gets lost in Christian mythology when really he was against the harsh Mosaic Law. He questioned the Torah himself and he would be horrified knowing that Christians made him the God of the Torah.

I think Christianity undermines the historic Jesus and what really happened. It's a bit of in insult to be made something you are not. Being the son of a Roman soldier is plausible because he was considered a low ranking Jew so his birth father was certainly questioned at the time. We don't know for certain that he even existed but I think he probably did. The time and place was right for someone like him to challenge the authority at the time.

What I am saying is you can believe in Jesus the man on a mission without believing in God. Making him the God of the Torah is flawed.

I think we're on the same wavelength.

 

[symyjym]

I think we're on the same wavelength.

I guess, only I would call myself atheist and you are probably agnostic. I do believe though that it is dangerous to take mythology and magic seriously. The American faith healers is a good example of evil leaking out of religion and it is open to abuse. I could go out in the world and use beliefs against people who believe and profit from pretending to believe myself so religious people are more vunerable to scams. (Edit: It is not in my moral compass to act this way)

 

[portlock seagull]

Wonder what's happened to the several missing persons who were seen during the attacks? It's rather odd they've not been identified amongst the wounded already if they were. Their families must be going spare with worry. What could have happenddd to them? Can't believe they're fine but unaware with amount of coverage and their pictures all over the news. Does it tragically mean the number of deaths must surely rise, if so where are their bodies? Very odd 3 days on from events they're still not accounted for

 

[goldstone]

What an absolutely ridiculous statement to make!! Can I remind you that Beram Kayal is a Muslim. What the f**k has Beram done to deserve to be deported?!? This has f**k all to do with Beram and the vast majority of Muslims. Please take your 1930s comments elsewhere!

OK then, we'll let Kayal stay, but only if he promises to be a good boy.

 

[clarkey]

Wonder what's happened to the several missing persons who were seen during the attacks? It's rather odd they've not been identified amongst the wounded already if they were. Their families must be going spare with worry. What could have happenddd to them? Can't believe they're fine but unaware with amount of coverage and their pictures all over the news. Does it tragically mean the number of deaths must surely rise, if so where are their bodies? Very odd 3 days on from events they're still not accounted for

Read somewhere that the coroner report wasn't going to start until today, so the dead won't begin to be formally identified until today. Presumably next of kin aren't informed until once coroner report is complete, or beyond any doubt whatsoever. Canadian lady's name presumably released early as she died in her partner's arms. British guy yesterday hasn't officially been named, but police told the family they had found his bank card on the body. Given hospitals will have been contacted by friends/family by now, we surely have to assume the missing are the remaining dead yet to be announced - Sara Zelenak, Ignacio Echeverria, Xavier Thomas, Sebastien Belanger.

 

[portlock seagull]

Read somewhere that the coroner report wasn't going to start until today, so the dead won't begin to be formally identified until today. Presumably next of kin aren't informed until once coroner report is complete, or beyond any doubt whatsoever. Canadian lady's name presumably released early as she died in her partner's arms. British guy yesterday hasn't officially been named, but police told the family they had found his bank card on the body. Given hospitals will have been contacted by friends/family by now, we surely have to assume the missing are the remaining dead yet to be announced - Sara Zelenak, Ignacio Echeverria, Xavier Thomas, Sebastien Belanger.

Oh no, so basically the missing must be amongst the dead and simply haven't been officially identified that's all. Those poor families. Heartbreaking. The feeling of dread must be intolerable awaiting confirmation. In the hearts they must know but in their heads they'll be hanging on to the tiniest bit of hope. I need a stiff drink after your reply (thank you), gods knows how these people will cope.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I guess, only I would call myself atheist and you are probably agnostic. I do believe though that it is dangerous to take mythology and magic seriously. The American faith healers is a good example of evil leaking out of religion and it is open to abuse. I could go out in the world and use beliefs against people who believe and profit from pretending to believe myself so religious people are more vunerable to scams. (Edit: It is not in my moral compass to act this way)

I am actually a Christian - even work for the Churches part-time - but very much to the more liberal end of things.

But I know and work with plenty of people who would profess themselves to be atheist who are a lot more "Christian" than some people who turn up to Church every Sunday. It's down to what you mentioned earlier about "Do unto others....." etc.

 

[BigGully]

I am actually a Christian - even work for the Churches part-time - but very much to the more liberal end of things.

But I know and work with plenty of people who would profess themselves to be atheist who are a lot more "Christian" than some people who turn up to Church every Sunday. It's down to what you mentioned earlier about "Do unto others....." etc.

Wooooha, you are not saying someone that you or I might think of as moral and has no religious inclination must of somehow gleaned this from religion but just chooses not to acknowledge it ...... ?

 

[symyjym]

As controversial as Tommy Robinson is, he is proactive at digging the dirt:

https://youtu.be/rt4yEoZ88aU

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Read somewhere that the coroner report wasn't going to start until today, so the dead won't begin to be formally identified until today. Presumably next of kin aren't informed until once coroner report is complete, or beyond any doubt whatsoever. Canadian lady's name presumably released early as she died in her partner's arms. British guy yesterday hasn't officially been named, but police told the family they had found his bank card on the body. Given hospitals will have been contacted by friends/family by now, we surely have to assume the missing are the remaining dead yet to be announced - Sara Zelenak, Ignacio Echeverria, Xavier Thomas, Sebastien Belanger.

The latest to be named are Australian and French, so contacting next of kin must take a while.

 

[symyjym]

I am actually a Christian - even work for the Churches part-time - but very much to the more liberal end of things.

But I know and work with plenty of people who would profess themselves to be atheist who are a lot more "Christian" than some people who turn up to Church every Sunday. It's down to what you mentioned earlier about "Do unto others....." etc.

I do also think that Jesus was also stating the obvious, he just phrased it really well. I don't think Christianity can monopolise a natural instinct which is what religions do. I believe this is called empathy which most primates are capable of.

 

[clarkey]

Oh no, so basically the missing must be amongst the dead and simply haven't been officially identified that's all. Those poor families. Heartbreaking. The feeling of dread must be intolerable awaiting confirmation. In the hearts they must know but in their heads they'll be hanging on to the tiniest bit of hope. I need a stiff drink after your reply (thank you), gods knows how these people will cope.

I think I may unfortunately be mistaken and we both may be right. The latest victim to be named, another Frenchman, was not one of the names I gave earlier.

Was going to write this earlier but decided against it, but given the above I am more inclined to speculate. A number of eye witnesses commented that they saw people either jumping, or being knocked by the van, into the river. However an authority later said no one was found in the river and no such stories have emerged. Certainly a French women hit on the bridge, while lying injured, was asking where her boyfriend was who had been with her moments earlier, but was now nowhere to be seen. It's a horrifying thought and I truly hope I'm wrong.

Edit: It now appears this may sadly have been the case for Xavier Thomas

 

[clarkey]

The latest to be named are Australian and French, so contacting next of kin must take a while.

I was thinking along these lines earlier but had the counter thought of, for the missing at least, it is their next of kin who are reaching out saying they are missing. I was thinking along the same lines as you, but was unsure how the two correlated.