[Politics] Pledge to Corbyn!

[The Merry Prankster]

View attachment 91737left to right glen ling 18 , graham duggan 22 , kev johnson 20, 1st Bn Grenadier Guards , all died of gunshot wounds 21/12/78 in crossmaglen , i thought id show some REAL people, REAL colour rather than cheap soundbite, im good mates with graham duggan and kev johnsons brothers , tell them that good manners cost nothing , as for your assertion that mcdonnell was merely relaying an interpretation of events , please dont insult my fvcking intelligence.

I am sorry for your loss. Equally I’m know there are many from the Republic who suffered loss and would paint a different picture of events and lay blame historically elsewhere. I don’t subscribe to a “my country, right or wrong” philosophy. I am opposed to the violence of both sides and the loss of life that entails. I’m sorry if that’s not enough for you but I’m not going to continue this debate as I can see it upsets you (and I’m tired of being sworn at).

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Sinn Fein is a political party so why shouldn't he engage with them

The point (you missed) being he only talks to one side ... the side he agrees with/supports. You know McGuinness and Adams were senior members of the IRA right?

 

[The Merry Prankster]

Well, don't moan about politeness then.

I’m sure there’s a connection between the two but I can’t see it.

 

[ManOfSussex]

There were 47 MP's across the parties who voted against The Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985, including Tories and Northern Irish Unionists, as well as those who supported a united Ireland - http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1985/nov/27/anglo-irish-agreement

 

[Buzzer]

I haven't read this anywhere but I'd be surprised if it hasn't been noticed by anyone else. The fact is that none of this is new and neither is it peculiar to the Labour Party.

Labour has Progress on the right with its most significant members being MPs. Momentum on the left is much more of a force within its local Labour groups and support the party leader's policies. Go back 30 years and the Tories were either Wets or Dry. The Wets leadership were mostly MPs and internal Conservative groups (Tory Reform Group etc) , the Dry Tories had rock solid support within their local constituencies and their views aligned to the Tory leadership. It's exactly analogous.

Spurred on by the right-wing newspapers, local parties were often in open warfare with their MP if he/she wasn't Thatcherite enough. This is from the Wiki page of Nigel Forman:

“The Carshalton Conservative Association suffers from bigots and zealots who indulge in internecine warfare. Not Labour smear tactics, nor Alliance innuendo, but the words of its Conservative MP, Mr Nigel Forman. Several attempts to deselect Mr Forman failed. But when the election was called last week, five of the seven senior officers took their revenge on the beleaguered MP by resigning.” – The Times, May 1987.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I’m sure there’s a connection between the two but I can’t see it.

That's the least of your problems. Out of interest if Corbyn or McDonnell had been seen high fiving an IRA active service unit shortly after carrying out their latest atrocity would you still be on board the Corbynmania bandwagon?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

There were 47 MP's across the parties who voted against The Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985, including Tories and Northern Irish Unionists, as well as those who supported a united Ireland - http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1985/nov/27/anglo-irish-agreement

And the reason Corbyn did was because it supposedly made a united Ireland less likely. Corbyn- “We believe that the agreement strengthens rather than weakens the border between the six and the 26 counties, and those of us who wish to see a United Ireland oppose the agreement for that reason.”

 

[The Merry Prankster]

That's the least of your problems. Out of interest if Corbyn or McDonnell had been seen high fiving an IRA active service unit shortly after carrying out their latest atrocity would you still be on board the Corbynmania bandwagon?

People have warned me about trying to debate with you, I should have listened.

 

[ManOfSussex]

And the reason Corbyn did was because it supposedly made a united Ireland less likely. Corbyn- “We believe that the agreement strengthens rather than weakens the border between the six and the 26 counties, and those of us who wish to see a United Ireland oppose the agreement for that reason.”

Yes - I knew that. It would also be the reason Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner voted against it.

I'd hazard a guess their view differed to Sir Nicholas Winterton, Enoch Powell or Sir John Farr, among others, who also voted against it.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

People have warned me about trying to debate with you, I should have listened.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Yes - I knew that. It would also be the reason Tony Benn and Dennis Skinner voted against it.

I'd hazard a guess their view differed to Sir Nicholas Winterton, Enoch Powell or Sir John Farr, among others, who also voted against it.

I'd hazard a guess that any supposed lifelong campaigner for peace as described by Ernie would have had the foresight to vote for a vital stepping stone to peace ahead of a partisan republican agenda.

 

[melias shoes]

This government is, objectively, far further to the right than Corbyn's Labour is to the left. If you can't, won't, or don't see that, you have a very limited understanding of what right-wing and left-wing actually mean (I suspect you see it only in terms of social issues).

You need to stop looking at this in terms of party and start thinking about it in terms of governing philosophy. We've been governed by the same hard-right economic philosophy since the 1980s, and it's a philosophy that before that was (rightly imo) regarded as the lunatic fringe of hard-right thinking.

Was you around in the 70s? I was and I remember coming home from school to dark houses because of power cuts/striker. The unions and Labour bringing the country to its knees. Mountains of stinking rotting rubbish going uncollected etc etc. The people that now calling the shots were the very people being monitored as communists back then. Labour are now being run and advised by these people. Everyone knows it. Far left in charge.

 

[portslade seagull]

Was you around in the 70s? I was and I remember coming home from school to dark houses because of power cuts/striker. The unions and Labour bringing the country to its knees. Mountains of stinking rotting rubbish going uncollected etc etc. The people that now calling the shots were the very people being monitored as communists back then. Labour are now being run and advised by these people. Everyone knows it. Far left in charge.

Yeah the candle makers loved it. Probably owned by Labour

 

[portslade seagull]

Sinn Fein is a political party so why shouldn't he engage with them

Terrorist organisation first and foremost

 

[Ernest]

Terrorist organisation first and foremost

Proof

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I haven't read this anywhere but I'd be surprised if it hasn't been noticed by anyone else. The fact is that none of this is new and neither is it peculiar to the Labour Party.

Labour has Progress on the right with its most significant members being MPs. Momentum on the left is much more of a force within its local Labour groups and support the party leader's policies. Go back 30 years and the Tories were either Wets or Dry. The Wets leadership were mostly MPs and internal Conservative groups (Tory Reform Group etc) , the Dry Tories had rock solid support within their local constituencies and their views aligned to the Tory leadership. It's exactly analogous.

Spurred on by the right-wing newspapers, local parties were often in open warfare with their MP if he/she wasn't Thatcherite enough. This is from the Wiki page of Nigel Forman:

“The Carshalton Conservative Association suffers from bigots and zealots who indulge in internecine warfare. Not Labour smear tactics, nor Alliance innuendo, but the words of its Conservative MP, Mr Nigel Forman. Several attempts to deselect Mr Forman failed. But when the election was called last week, five of the seven senior officers took their revenge on the beleaguered MP by resigning.” – The Times, May 1987.

As usual, a voice of reason

I also agree with my regular adversary @JCFG who points out the folly of talking to only one side (and pretending to be even handed; something that both sides of the 'hard' coin have done, time and time again).

Ironically two of the few politicians who come out of the NI fiasco with any credibility are two of our most reviled past PMs - Major and Mr Tony. The peace process does not please everyone (certainly not all the bereaved, all the former British service people, the interred and the disenfranchised - trying to be even handed here), but as Churchill said, jaw-jaw betters war-war.

For those who are still affected by their expriences of conflict (in its wider sense as well as the present context), especially those who constantly reinforce their perspective, and especially those who are convinced they are right, you have two choices: feed it or fight it. In every aspect of human experience I have encountered, when there has been conflict and it defines a person, if they continuue to feed it, eventually it eats them. The reflex response to that bit of comment is, of course, 'bullshit'. What do I know, after all?

 

[Hampster Gull]

This government is, objectively, far further to the right than Corbyn's Labour is to the left. If you can't, won't, or don't see that, you have a very limited understanding of what right-wing and left-wing actually mean (I suspect you see it only in terms of social issues).

You need to stop looking at this in terms of party and start thinking about it in terms of governing philosophy. We've been governed by the same hard-right economic philosophy since the 1980s, and it's a philosophy that before that was (rightly imo) regarded as the lunatic fringe of hard-right thinking.

Wait until we are competing with the EU through low taxes and flexibility. We will be further right than you have ever known, albeit not “hard-right”. That or we will be an economic backwater

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'd hazard a guess that any supposed lifelong campaigner for peace as described by Ernie would have had the foresight to vote for a vital stepping stone to peace ahead of a partisan republican agenda.

That's your view - you're entitled to it and it's a matter between you and [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION].

I'm surprised that a patriot - and an unashamed, proud one, just like yourself - gave credence to Dennis Skinner though for voting for your Brexit ideologue on that other thread, when he hates the monarchy and wants a united Ireland just like the next man who does - such as Corbyn, Benn etc - Were Jeremy Corbyn and Ian Paisley just foresighted?

 

[wellquickwoody]

The only man who has campaigned for world peace the whole of his life who is also a terrorist

Apologist/sympathiser, he wouldn't actually put himself on the line would he?

 

[JetsetJimbo]

His last paragraph was right to be fair. From the end of the war until the late seventies we had a post-war consensus where the Tories were economically left of Blair. The thinkers that influenced Thatcher and Reagan were considered waaaaaay out there in the late 70's. Thatcher had a huge battle to win in her own party to sell the ideas of the free market economists, let alone in the country at large.

Thatcher was as radical to that post-war consensus as Corbyn is now to the consensus that she built. The Tory party pre-Thatcher would be thought of as economically centre-left now.

Thank you, I very much appreciate your post. Unfortunately, I see it's impossible to have a reasonable debate with people whose entire understanding of politics is "red party = left, blue party = right", but I'm still astonished by the number of people who don't or won't understand that Blair was a continuation of the Thatcherite consensus. It's amazing, considering both Blair and Thatcher said exactly this themselves!

But what would I know, huh? I've only spent half a lifetime studying political philosophy and the the other half working in central government.