[Politics] Pledge to Corbyn!

[The Merry Prankster]

DUP, right wing nutters? Thats not really acceptable language is it. They have just saved Northern Ireland from catastrophe. They dislike Corbyn because of history with the IRA and before I hear the same old litany of him trying to be peacemaker, you need to speak to both sides to do that. Your language and tone belies any words you write. You're close to being brain washed sunshine.

Patronising? Moi?

 

[Brighton Mod]

Patronising? Moi?

Ha ha,

 

[synavm]

I think you'll find that it is the above named who are out of sync with the rest of us. At a national level the Labour Party splits into two camps 1) those that believe that a Neo-liberal economic system is bad/has run its course and those 2) who don't. Group 1 includes the leadership, the membership and Momentum, Group 2 contains some of the PLP, Blairites and centerists..

Group 1 believes its broken and needs radical fixing, Group 2 think all will be well with some edge tinkering.

They are going to disagree. One side will come out on top as there is no compromise between these two positions. Personally I hope its group 1 and they get to offer an alternative to the disaster we've got now.

I think that’s overly simplistic, though roughly on the right track.

At what point does neoliberalism cease to be neoliberal? The most popular definition of neoliberalism as I understand it is the concept that the market will always prevail and we should end up in a never ending cycle of privatisation.

I would put it to you that upwards of 90% of the PLP do not subscribe to that viewpoint- including those that have been declared ‘Blairites’ and 99% of the membership. In general I believe pretty much everyone in the Labour Party believes in some sort of mixed economy.

I’d put it to you that the differences between the tribes lay within the means of getting things done. The Momentum side has a more idealistic vision that interventionalism and strong trade unions alone leads to a more prosperous society. The other side is more complex and more multi-faceted than I think is typically understood. In general I find that the view here is that globalisation is good for us and bad for us and as the sixth largest economy in the world, we’re not big enough to overthrow the system even if we wanted to, as such to establish a fairer society we should look to investment to stimulate the economy followed by redistribution and legislative measures to ensure a more equal society.

Basically, I see it as boldness vs. pragmatism. You really want to find a sweet spot on the middle and reach out.

My issue with what’s going on at the moment is that for many factionism takes priority over understanding other people’s viewpoints are and that’s not good- you end up with slurs and mistruths that end up defining careers of perfectly good people that in general want precisely the same things as those seeking to oust them.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I think that’s overly simplistic.

At what point does neoliberalism cease to be neoliberal? The most popular definition of neoliberalism as I understand it is the concept that the market will always prevail and we should end up in a never ending cycle of privatisation.

I would put it to you that upwards of 90% of the PLP do not subscribe to that viewpoint- including those that have been declared ‘Blairites’ and 99% of the membership. In general I believe pretty much everyone in the Labour Party believes in some sort of mixed economy.

I’d put it to you that the differences between the tribes lay within the means of getting things done. The Momentum side has a more idealistic vision that interventionalism and strong trade unions alone leads to a more prosperous society. The other side is more complex and more multi-faceted than I think is typically understood. In general I find that the view here is that globalisation is good for us and bad for us and as the sixth largest economy in the world, we’re not big enough to overthrow the system even if we wanted to, as such to establish a fairer society we should look to investment to stimulate the economy followed by redistribution and legislative measures to ensure a more equal society.

Basically, I see it as boldness vs. pragmatism. You really want to find a sweet spot on the middle and reach out.

Thanks for that. It is true it was simplistic but in my experience most people are not so engaged that more complex analysis can be wasted.

It’s possible that neo liberalism has reached the end of the road anyway. It doesn’t seem to have anywhere obvious to go now.

And you may be right about the beliefs of some or all of the PLP and Blairites are for a mixed economy but in what measure? Not a meaningful amount in a lot of cases.

As I get older (I’m 57) I feel the need for more boldness.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

As per usual, some odd posts on this thread.

As for momentum, the second they start on sitting MPs, we are back to the days of 'no compromise with the electorate'.

Oops!

And any discussion on whether one believes in the market economy is akin to a discussion on whether one believes the sea is below the sky.

Happy Christmas, everyone (may I be the first to say that).

There is no god. Sorry.

 

[alfredmizen]

I attended the committee meeting of our local group last night. Every single person on it had lived through the seventies and none of them had any desire to revisit them.

Then why the fvck do you support corbyn you clown ?

 

[The Merry Prankster]

Then why the fvck do you support corbyn you clown ?

Are you still expecting politeness and respect from those who know your former identity?

 

[JetsetJimbo]

If the far right was in charge of the Tories you would be shouting from the rooftops.]

If? Was? Have you been paying any attention in the last two years whatsoever?

 

[GreersElbow]

Oh I see. You’d rather take the word of some disillusioned centrists and Blairites who are desperately trying to hang on to their power/prestige/money/jobs than actually find out for yourself. And they are lying. Barefacedly. Our meeting last night was about the need to remain open, honest and engaging in the face of this onslaught. You might not like what we say (and that’s fine) but hopefully we are honest and open about how we go about our business and how we present our ideas.

This is such a momentum reply it’s unbelievable.

Momentum are ruining the labour party with its Maoist approaches.

“Pledge to Corbyn” ought to be pledging to their local communities.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

If? Was? Have you been paying any attention in the last two years whatsoever?

You think Boris Johnson etc are the far right ? He believes in increasing immigration. Don’t misuse the term ‘far right’ by using it to describe people with whom you disagree. The threat from the actual far right is real and needs to be understood to be opposed.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

This is such a momentum reply it’s unbelievable.

Momentum are ruining the labour party with its Maoist approaches.

“Pledge to Corbyn” ought to be pledging to their local communities.

Have you actually looked at what this "Maoist" pledge says?

Grassroots activist Labour members are more committed to their communities than any other group I know.

 

[Blue3]

Really? How many meetings have you been to? I was at ours last night and don’t recognise that description but I expect you have a lot more experience than me.

Having recently joined the Labour Party Momentum have contacted me a couple of times and I have to say the communication I have had has been all very positive, polite, inclusive advercating democratic ways to support Labour to win the next election and nothing like the twisted stories you hear in the press and oftern repeated on here.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I challenge [MENTION=534]Chicken Run[/MENTION] to go to a meeting and meet Momentum. He might be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Chicken Run]

I challenge [MENTION=534]Chicken Run[/MENTION] to go to a meeting and meet Momentum. He might be pleasantly surprised.

No thanks HT, I’ll be brainwashed and have to “disconnect “ with SP’s and non believers [emoji23]

 

[Guinness Boy]

Sad tribalism on show all round as usual. Politicians should be public servants first and ideologues second. On that note if Peter Kyle stays the Labour candidate for Hove at the next election Labour will retain my vote. If he's outed by Momentum they'll lose it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JetsetJimbo]

You think Boris Johnson etc are the far right ? He believes in increasing immigration. Don’t misuse the term ‘far right’ by using it to describe people with whom you disagree. The threat from the actual far right is real and needs to be understood to be opposed.

Whether someone is on the right or not is not determined solely by their position on migration. On the more fundamental issue of the structure of our economy and society, the current incarnation of the Tories are further to the right than Corbyn's Labour are to the left.

 

[Chicken Run]

Sad tribalism on show all round as usual. Politicians should be public servants first and ideologues second. On that note if Peter Kyle stays the Labour candidate for Hove at the next election Labour will retain my vote. If he's outed by Momentum they'll lose it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed

 

[JetsetJimbo]

Have you actually looked at what this "Maoist" pledge says?

Grassroots activist Labour members are more committed to their communities than any other group I know.

The whole conversation is pretty absurd really, isn't it? It's based on a lie. This isn't a "loyalty pledge" of any sort whatsoever. It's simply that if a candidate wishes to have the support of Momentum's activists, they need to support the policy aims of those activists.

Labour did rather better than expected in June in the seats that Momentum targeted. But why would anybody campaign and canvass for a politician who holds them and their views in open contempt?

Those who are aghast at this need to answer some questions. Why do they think Momentum activists should have to work, for free, for candidates who don't share their values and hold them in contempt?

What form would this take? In what way would Momentum's activists be compelled to do this work? Would there be any consequences if they said "no, I'm not giving up my free time to knock on my doors for {candidate}, because he or she wants to privatize the NHS" (or whatever)? What would those consequences be?

It seems to me that those complaining about this don't actually understand it, and/or haven't thought their reasoning through to its logical conclusion.

 

[On the Left Wing]

I don't think any one wants 3 day weeks, power cuts, governments going cap in hand to the IMF and British Leyland strikes over tea breaks.

Its the inevitability of it......

As someone who lived through the 60s and 70s the three day week and power cuts were under Ted Heath’s TORY government!

 

[Lower West Stander]

As someone who lived through the 60s and 70s the three day week and power cuts were under Ted Heath’s TORY government!

Right - and who was running the country at the time?

Because it certainly wasn't the Tory government......