[News] Plane gone down in the French Alps?

[34064 Fighter Command]

If this person had a desk job, I'd agree with you but if someone has a history of mental illness they shouldn't be allowed to get anywhere near the cockpit of a passenger plane. End of story.

Would you allow them to drive a car. They have the same means to create carnage, just as Bryan Drysdale did when he parked on Ufton Nervert level crossing.

Would you let them board a bus. Would you ever allow them out of their house, simply because they may attack someone at random. Just where do we draw the line. Fred and Rosemary West weren't stopped by not flying a plane.

AS I said, it's down to risk management, and ALL of us have the capacity to 'go loco'.

You cannot understand the brain unless you talk to people because cognitive behaviour cannot be separated from learning, and communication is a vital part of the learning process.

Someone in another thread mentioned how they could do the Myers-Briggs personality test to get any outcome they thought the examiner was looking for, so the ability to suppress depression and suicidal tendancies is a behaviour that humans have the capacity to also learn.

Most of us will find some release with a hobby, a life partner, a family or as part of a society or association ( Rotary Club, Freemsonary, Red Cross, Voluntary or Charitable work ) and that is something that comes from the education we get as a child, how we interact with our contemperies ( at school, in cubs, brownies, scouts, cadet forces, football teams etc ), or it may be our role as Parent, Guardian, Carer, Pet Owner, or Professional Occupation ( for instance a desire to study Medicine or Teaching and follow it for a career ).

 

[Steve in Japan]

I fully empathise with your views in relation to feeling anger and contempt towards this murder of other people.

Our comments were sparked however by the suggestion that this would have not had happened had it been for the existence of the EU and the 'PC Brigage'. There's plenty to take the EU to task over, and the same for many of the apologist activities of the Guardianista, but this isn't one of them.

If you will allow the biggest cock on the board (your words) a response, I actually said in my post that caused you such ire that "I was getting ahead of myself and needed to wait for the facts to emerge before judging". My speculation was I suppose trying to understand why an airline would employ an individual with diagnosed depression as a pilot. Because common sense suggests you would not. That's all.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32087203

In their statement, prosecutors said they seized medical documents from Mr Lubitz's two residences - his Duesseldorf flat and his parents' home north of Frankfurt - which indicated "an existing illness and appropriate medical treatment".
But "the fact that, among the documents found, there were sick notes - torn-up, current and for the day of the crash - leads to the provisional assessment that the deceased was hiding his illness from his employer", the report states.

 

[BigGully]

If this person had a desk job, I'd agree with you but if someone has a history of mental illness they shouldn't be allowed to get anywhere near the cockpit of a passenger plane. End of story.

I understand your point, but I am guessing that we cannot be sure how mental health might manifests itself whether documented or not, thankfully most people with mental health issues do not have any inclination to harm others, so how can we determine any persons future actions based on such an rare incident.

If it can be determined that he might harm others then he needed to be removed from any workplace, but it seems his employers had no reason to think this.

Your own point allowing say an office job might have only shifted his actions from those passengers to his work colleagues at that office and your decision then would be deemed wrong and irresponsible.

It highlights the difficulties when trying to assess any persons mental wellbeing without discriminating against them.

 

[symyjym]

There is such a wide spectrum of mental conditions and I think the figure is 1 in 5 people have some sort of breakdown in their lives. This is not counting the people who can rationalise it themselves and do not seek help. I am pretty sure that not everyone who has a condition wants to commit mass murder or involve others in their suicide. Someone having time off for stress or depression shouldn’t automatically make them a danger to society.

There is no guaranteed way of predicting that someone would do what he did, and the only thing that can be done is to expect that anyone could. Other airlines have a two person in a cockpit policy as a safety measure because even if someone does not have a history of mental illness, anyone can develop one at any time without being diagnosed.

I wouldn’t know for sure, but I would not be surprised if he had fantasised about doing this for years, and if this was the case he would have hidden this from everyone. The last thing you would say, if you are a pilot, is that you often visualise crashing a plane.

 

[dazzer6666]

If this person had a desk job, I'd agree with you but if someone has a history of mental illness they shouldn't be allowed to get anywhere near the cockpit of a passenger plane. End of story.

This, without doubt. Where your job can compromise the safety and life of others to this extent there have to be additional measures. My dad had a stroke 3 years ago and is still not allowed to drive due to some impact on his vision (since tested to be fine). There are procedures in place to withdraw licences in such circumstances for drivers......so presumably airlines/CAA etc could do the same.

I find labelling someone with depression as a 'nut job' however extremely offensive.

 

[BigGully]

This, without doubt. Where your job can compromise the safety and life of others to this extent there have to be additional measures. My dad had a stroke 3 years ago and is still not allowed to drive due to some impact on his vision (since tested to be fine). There are procedures in place to withdraw licences in such circumstances for drivers......so presumably airlines/CAA etc could do the same.

I find labelling someone with depression as a 'nut job' however extremely offensive.

Unlike the DVLA's procedures and assessments, the problem is that it wasnt his incompetence or a physical ailment that impaired his performance that then crashed the plane, it was an unknown willingness to crash it, far more difficult to foresee.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

A few details have emerged about the pilot who flew the plane for the first 20 minutes, until he was locked out by Mr Lubitz. He has been named in the German media as Patrick Sonderheimer. French radio station Europe1 interviewed a former colleague of his who said Mr Sonderheimer was married with two small children and was "one of our best pilots".

Recordings show Mr Sonderheimer banged repeatedly on the cockpit door, in a vain attempt to regain access. German tabloid Bild quoted security sources as saying that he then used an axe to try to break it down.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

There is such a wide spectrum of mental conditions and I think the figure is 1 in 5 people have some sort of breakdown in their lives. This is not counting the people who can rationalise it themselves and do not seek help. I am pretty sure that not everyone who has a condition wants to commit mass murder or involve others in their suicide. Someone having time off for stress or depression shouldn’t automatically make them a danger to society.

There is no guaranteed way of predicting that someone would do what he did, and the only thing that can be done is to expect that anyone could. Other airlines have a two person in a cockpit policy as a safety measure because even if someone does not have a history of mental illness, anyone can develop one at any time without being diagnosed.

I wouldn’t know for sure, but I would not be surprised if he had fantasised about doing this for years, and if this was the case he would have hidden this from everyone. The last thing you would say, if you are a pilot, is that you often visualise crashing a plane.

Yet pilots are expected to put planes in dangerous situations when training on flight simulators, and see how their colleagues deal with it. Perhaps he was at the point where his breakdown meant he could not seperate the reality of an actual aircraft from a test exercise on a flight simulator.

Should they believe what they see is not reality but just another simulator training session, with no harmful long term consequences, they are unfit to fly, but this may be a conditioning arising from the training in a 'safe' environment. Obviously this is delusional, but often people with high responsibility, and high stress jobs, can be prone to having 'delusions of grandeur' ( I'll call it the 'do you know who I am' kind of outburst ) which, if questioned by an authority figure, will cause them to make a 'futile' gesture to prove a point.

Firefighters have been known to commit arson, just for the buzz of getting sent out on a 'shout' to extinguish the flames. This is the same kind of cognitive behaviour. " I'll do something so drastic and important that people will have to take me seriously " can sometimes be how people resond to being belittled or humiliated in another part of their life. Maybe a work colleague had seen his training notes and told him he was a 'nut job', and this was his perverse way of getting back at them.

When people have got themselves into a negative mindset, dominated by visions of a future where things only ever become worse, they resort to primordial instincts causing mood swings beyond their control. Winston Churchill suffered from it and called it his 'black dog', and unless the sufferer starts to admit this, they may never manifest signs of unstableness until they perform their one act of 'attention grabbing' behaviour. Our social interactions in normal society allow us to often talk through our problems and understand that the reality is never as bad as the perception, but not many of us are given the responsibilty of flying an aircraft with peoples lifes at stake.

 

[dazzer6666]

Unlike the DVLA's procedures and assessments, the problem is that it wasnt his incompetence or a physical ailment that impaired his performance that then crashed the plane, it was an unknown willingness to crash it, far more difficult to foresee.

Possibly, although it was the doctor who told my dad not to drive, and who informed the DVLA under a duty he apparently has. I would have thought that a similar setup for, in this case, the guys doctor to advise the authorities could be in place.

 

[Hillian1]

A few details have emerged about the pilot who flew the plane for the first 20 minutes, until he was locked out by Mr Lubitz. He has been named in the German media as Patrick Sonderheimer. French radio station Europe1 interviewed a former colleague of his who said Mr Sonderheimer was married with two small children and was "one of our best pilots".

Recordings show Mr Sonderheimer banged repeatedly on the cockpit door, in a vain attempt to regain access. German tabloid Bild quoted security sources as saying that he then used an axe to try to break it down.

WTF.

Where do you get an axe from on a passenger plane.

 

[BigGully]

Possibly, although it was the doctor who told my dad not to drive, and who informed the DVLA under a duty he apparently has. I would have thought that a similar setup for, in this case, the guys doctor to advise the authorities could be in place.

Absolutely I would suspect that any identifiable issues that would adversely effect him being a pilot must then be reported in that way.

 

[Insel affe]

WTF.

Where do you get an axe from on a passenger plane.

He borrowed it from a swarthy looking gentleman in isle twenty two.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

WTF.

Where do you get an axe from on a passenger plane.

Pre 9/11 they were in the cabin - then they were moved to the cockpit.
However I'm sure that there would be another, I wouldn't want to speculate on where - but the Pilot (being experienced) probably knew where to get it.

 

[Justice]

Quite a high proportion of people are "nut-jobs", as you so nicely put it, many, if not most, of whom manage to lead normal lives with the right help and support.

Would you be so PC if your family had just been slaughtered?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

WTF.

Where do you get an axe from on a passenger plane.

Maybe the crew has access to it in the galley for emergencies?

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

A few details have emerged about the pilot who flew the plane for the first 20 minutes, until he was locked out by Mr Lubitz. He has been named in the German media as Patrick Sonderheimer. French radio station Europe1 interviewed a former colleague of his who said Mr Sonderheimer was married with two small children and was "one of our best pilots".

Recordings show Mr Sonderheimer banged repeatedly on the cockpit door, in a vain attempt to regain access. German tabloid Bild quoted security sources as saying that he then used an axe to try to break it down.

As I understand it the axe is kept secure INSIDE the cockpit so this security source doesn't know what he's talking about, although he may have been attempting to kick it or ram the door using a trolley and hand luggage (with the help of air crew and passengers ). If the axe is accessible outside the cockpit then it offers any hijacker a potential weapon, which, when knifes, sharps and guns are all banned, would be counter-productive.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

From this fire fighting manual, it appears cabin (galley) crew do have a crash axe.
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1177.pdf

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

From this fire fighting manual, it appears cabin (galley) crew do have a crash axe.
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1177.pdf

Relocated to the cockpit post 9/11 on all BA fleet and would imagine others would have done the same.

 

[34064 Fighter Command]

From this fire fighting manual, it appears cabin (galley) crew do have a crash axe.
http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1177.pdf

It does not state WHERE this is stored, but I would still expect it to be in the cockpit, which is why it make great emphasis on communication between cabin crew and pilot / co-pilot in setion V.1 (page 6).

As an escape weapon it is only needed to get through the cockpit window or break open a toilet door, so only airline personnel need it. As a means of allowing someone to storm the flight deck it would be ideal in the passenger compartment / galley, where someone authorised to obtain it could be outnumbered and physically overpowered. As a means of storming the cockpit, it should be ineffective, precisely because the cockpit needs to be securable in 99.9999% occurences.

You can put as many tools and proceedures in place that can be humanly devised yet their will always be some means that they can be bypassed by someone determined, knowledgable and positioned to subvert them. That's just a fact of life, which is why every safety law will state ' as far as is REASONABLY praticable ' when demanding a duty of care on an organisation or individual.