Peace Ship Attacked

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Sorry Steve ( not sure hed be happy to be associated with this) but you cant just use this as a pulpit.

Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range | World news | The Guardian

Gaza flotilla: Turkey's stance is a lesson to the west | World news | The Guardian

 

[brighton bluenose]

Elections, as far as I am aware, were due to be called in Gaza in January 2010 yet we are still waiting for them, so technically Hamas do in fact have no right to be in the position they are in today. So much for democracy.

'Many Jews' is a gross generalisation and seriously stereotypical allegation to make and I must question on what ground you can make such an outlandish preposterous assumption. You may not be aware but there are approximately 275,000 Jews in the UK and many more who do not consider themselves as Jewish but are Jewish according to Jewish or do not know they are Jewish (my flatmate found out he was Jewish because he did not know that it ran through the mother's bloodline), many of whom work in business, law, hospitals and many other professions. I would hardly say Alan Sugar has refused to assimilate, nor would it be fair to say that Sir Phillip Green has refused to assimilate and nor would it be fair to say Tony Bloom and his family who have been shareholders in the Albion for years have refused to assimilate.


Therefore, your statement is pathetically flawed and you have merely exposed your ignorance and naivity to embrace such a stereotype.

My statement is 'pathetically flawed' because of a few dodgdy stats and that you name three Jewish people who have allegedly assimilated?!!

The fact is I said that there are 'many' who dont want to assimilate our mate dazzalewis1968 being one of them. I didnt say 'all', 'the majority' or anything like that - I personally think that there are 'many' jews that dont want to assimilate and until you give me some real stats to prove otherwise rather than the above tosh I'll stick to that!!

 

[ROKERITE]

Sorry Steve ( not sure hed be happy to be associated with this) but you cant just use this as a pulpit.

Gaza flotilla activists were shot in head at close range | World news | The Guardian

Gaza flotilla: Turkey's stance is a lesson to the west | World news | The Guardian

How very sad; pro-Islamic, anti-Western chanting by thousands of Turks, burning of U.S. flags, etc.: Ataturk must be turning in his grave to see all the progress he set in motion being reversed. You live in Izmir, are you not worried that civil war in Turkey between the secularists and those who want to go back to the dark ages, is a real possibility in a few years time?

 

[Greeno]

My statement is 'pathetically flawed' because of a few dodgdy stats and that you name three Jewish people who have allegedly assimilated?!!

The fact is I said that there are 'many' who dont want to assimilate our mate dazzalewis1968 being one of them. I didnt say 'all', 'the majority' or anything like that - I personally think that there are 'many' jews that dont want to assimilate and until you give me some real stats to prove otherwise rather than the above tosh I'll stick to that!!

You have missed my point entirely and have instead decided to cherry pick one very small minor point.

'Dodgy stats'?!?! Are they dodgy because they conflict with your warped assumption? I challenge you to provide me with statistics on which you make such a statement because all you have done is used a stereotype based on no material fact whatsoever. If you read them and open your mind for one small moment you will see that what you have said is clearly wrong, as I have just proved. I will say it again, yes there are in fact some who do refuse to assimilate, but they are the fringe of the fringe of a population of 275,000.

So, I ask you again: On what basis can you say there are 'many' Jews who refuse to assimilate? If I were to say there are many priests who are paedophiles, would that be fair for me to say without any factual proof? You make your statement like it is a matter of fact rather than your own opinion, so please tell me on what basis you choose to make this, because I am genuinely interested to hear what bullshit reasoning you deploy.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

How very sad; pro-Islamic, anti-Western chanting by thousands of Turks, burning of U.S. flags, etc.: Ataturk must be turning in his grave to see all the progress he set in motion being reversed. You live in Izmir, are you not worried that civil war in Turkey between the secularists and those who want to go back to the dark ages, is a real possibility in a few years time?

No... better to come here and see.... The only flags you see in Izmir are red ones with big stars and crescents on them.

there is a religious radical element around as there is the National Front and there are radicals in government as there is the Tory party. Personally I distrust the AKP but up until a few weeks ago there was genuinely no valid democratic option... all the other parties were one-man dictatorships who couldnt give a fig about Turkish people. The main opposition leader though was forced to resign after a sex scandal and the man who got in offers real hope fro the social democratic centre left.

I would argue that Tayyip Erdogan is a clever politician. He is playing the middle path between the West and the Muslim East, showing that he can talk to both sides and cosying up to Russia to show the danger of the Eu trying to alienate Turkey. An economic union involving russia and turkey, cosnidering their pooled resources, would be a real threat to the economic power of the EU.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

You have missed my point entirely and have instead decided to cherry pick one very small minor point.

'Dodgy stats'?!?! Are they dodgy because they conflict with your warped assumption? I challenge you to provide me with statistics on which you make such a statement because all you have done is used a stereotype based on no material fact whatsoever. If you read them and open your mind for one small moment you will see that what you have said is clearly wrong, as I have just proved. I will say it again, yes there are in fact some who do refuse to assimilate, but they are the fringe of the fringe of a population of 275,000.

So, I ask you again: On what basis can you say there are 'many' Jews who refuse to assimilate? If I were to say there are many priests who are paedophiles, would that be fair for me to say without any factual proof? You make your statement like it is a matter of fact rather than your own opinion, so please tell me on what basis you choose to make this, because I am genuinely interested to hear what bullshit reasoning you deploy.

Hi Greeno!

yesterday I asked you to elucidate on your claim that jews were forced out of 'Israel' and were stopped from ever-returning. How are we doing with that?

 

[Greeno]

No... better to come here and see.... The only flags you see in Izmir are red ones with big stars and crescents on them.

there is a religious radical element around as there is the National Front and there are radicals in government as there is the Tory party. Personally I distrust the AKP but up until a few weeks ago there was genuinely no valid democratic option... all the other parties were one-man dictatorships who couldnt give a fig about Turkish people. The main opposition leader though was forced to resign after a sex scandal and the man who got in offers real hope fro the social democratic centre left.

I would argue that Tayyip Erdogan is a clever politician. He is playing the middle path between the West and the Muslim East, showing that he can talk to both sides and cosying up to Russia to show the danger of the Eu trying to alienate Turkey. An economic union involving russia and turkey, cosnidering their pooled resources, would be a real threat to the economic power of the EU.

Sully, have you had a chance to read an account from one of the soldiers yet?

: Israeli commando | The Australian

 

[Greeno]

Jewish were expelled from the land..... I assume you mean by the Romans... or are you talking about the Crusades or the Muslim invasions? Could you be specific. You probably have more primary source data than me so could you give dates and sources? I know for a fact that there has been a Jewish community in Istanbul for more than 600 years and that is more than half way to Jerusalem and I also know they made yearly pilgrimages to Jerusalem (this is 600years ago) as they followed the Mecca route with the Muslim pilgrims. There was also a Jewish community in Baghdad since at least the twelfth century.

Oh, and Iron Wall?

Sorry Sully, I hadn't had a chance to read all the posts from the last few days before I commented on the anti-semitic bile from the posters above.

To be perfectly honest, my belief behind why the State of Israel should exist where it does is more to do with history consisting of the last 200 years, rather than the last 2000 years. I believe that it was the Romans who expelled the Jews after the destruction of the Second Temple, however, if you are asking me to relay primary sources and facts, I'm afraid I do not have any.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Sorry Sully, I hadn't had a chance to read all the posts from the last few days before I commented on the anti-semitic bile from the posters above.

To be perfectly honest, my belief behind why the State of Israel should exist where it does is more to do with history consisting of the last 200 years, rather than the last 2000 years. I believe that it was the Romans who expelled the Jews after the destruction of the Second Temple, however, if you are asking me to relay primary sources and facts, I'm afraid I do not have any.

That's ok. At least you're honest on that. In fact, Ottoman archives prove that there was an active Jewish community in jerusalem as early as 1500 and as dazzalewis has correctly pointed out there have always beeen Jews in the region. There hasnt been a state with any right to that name of any denomination since the First Crusade and before that, probably the Jewish kingdom itself so it would have been difficult to keep Jews out of the area entirely. We know for a fact that Jewish communities influenced the Prophet Mohammed both positively and negatively... the word 'Cohen' comes form the title of 'Kahin' explicitly referred to in 5th and 6th century Arab texts.

There is no doubt that it was an incredible miracle that so many jews lived nearly two thousand years away from their homeland yet retained their religious identity... there are, as far as I know, no records of numbers of people who converted to Judaism during those centures so it is probably safe to say that most jews were historical Jews and not previous converts.

The water begins to muddy with the growth of Zionism and its precursers in the nineteenth century. before that time, there is conslusive jewish evidence that Jews did not see themselves as nationals foremost of a now extinct state in Israel but as nationals of the country in which they resided. It is in the 19th cenruty that the psalmic notion of Israel became a concrete desire to return and rebuild a concrete state. Many reewasrchers have argued this was in direct response to the final reasoning of the Jewish community that they would never be fully assimilated into their countries of birth and that it was a case of get out or be shut out. One is tempted to assume that if there had been less progroms and more undertanding and respect for Jews if israel would ever have come into existance.

There is no questionn that Zionism depicts Jews as permanently under attack and in need iof a safe home. However, there is no evidence that jews were unable to enter israel.... it was Zionists and their precursers who were actively disbarred from entrance to Israel.

Please feel free to challenge any comments I have made here with research sources... we all are in need of further learning

 

[Greeno]

That's ok. At least you're honest on that. In fact, Ottoman archives prove that there was an active Jewish community in jerusalem as early as 1500 and as dazzalewis has correctly pointed out there have always beeen Jews in the region. There hasnt been a state with any right to that name of any denomination since the First Crusade and before that, probably the Jewish kingdom itself so it would have been difficult to keep Jews out of the area entirely. We know for a fact that Jewish communities influenced the Prophet Mohammed both positively and negatively... the word 'Cohen' comes form the title of 'Kahin' explicitly referred to in 5th and 6th century Arab texts.

There is no doubt that it was an incredible miracle that so many jews lived nearly two thousand years away from their homeland yet retained their religious identity... there are, as far as I know, no records of numbers of people who converted to Judaism during those centures so it is probably safe to say that most jews were historical Jews and not previous converts.

The water begins to muddy with the growth of Zionism and its precursers in the nineteenth century. before that time, there is conslusive jewish evidence that Jews did not see themselves as nationals foremost of a now extinct state in Israel but as nationals of the country in which they resided. It is in the 19th cenruty that the psalmic notion of Israel became a concrete desire to return and rebuild a concrete state. Many reewasrchers have argued this was in direct response to the final reasoning of the Jewish community that they would never be fully assimilated into their countries of birth and that it was a case of get out or be shut out. One is tempted to assume that if there had been less progroms and more undertanding and respect for Jews if israel would ever have come into existance.

There is no questionn that Zionism depicts Jews as permanently under attack and in need iof a safe home. However, there is no evidence that jews were unable to enter israel.... it was Zionists and their precursers who were actively disbarred from entrance to Israel.

Please feel free to challenge any comments I have made here with research sources... we all are in need of further learning

If such was the case, when Jews needed somewhere safe (safer) to go to during WWII, why were they turned away from Palestine? Many of them were not zionists and I'm sure given the chance at the time would have loved to have continued living in Amsterdam or Berlin. Instead, the doors were locked on their historic homeland (by your own admission) at the time they needed them open most.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

If such was the case, when Jews needed somewhere safe (safer) to go to during WWII, why were they turned away from Palestine? Many of them were not zionists and I'm sure given the chance at the time would have loved to have continued living in Amsterdam or Berlin. Instead, the doors were locked on their historic homeland (by your own admission) at the time they needed them open most.

.

You are absolutelky correct. As you will know the zionist influx into Isreal post 1912 had escalated tensions between Jews and Arabs in the region and radical elements had formulated on both sides.... most worringly in the pro-Nazi imam led Arab movement. The british mandate was to keep peace in the region, a region which could quite become a theatre of war. Allowing jews into the area at this time (at least some of whom would have been zionist) was only likely to inflame the political siuation further. Of course, what you must remember was that this was in the middle of the war and the final solution was still unknown.

 

[dazzalewis1968]

My statement is 'pathetically flawed' because of a few dodgdy stats and that you name three Jewish people who have allegedly assimilated?!!

The fact is I said that there are 'many' who dont want to assimilate our mate dazzalewis1968 being one of them. I didnt say 'all', 'the majority' or anything like that - I personally think that there are 'many' jews that dont want to assimilate and until you give me some real stats to prove otherwise rather than the above tosh I'll stick to that!!

Assimilate ! lets get facts right buddy ! I live a normal life in every day uk life
i even deal with low life like you on here.

but behind my closed doors i follow my faith now how is that wrong?
get your facts right your Anti Isreal views have made you anti semtic.

The reason i need to support Israel and a homeland for jews are people like who givin the chance would put me on a train and not to falmer may i ADD

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

If such was the case, when Jews needed somewhere safe (safer) to go to during WWII, why were they turned away from Palestine? Many of them were not zionists and I'm sure given the chance at the time would have loved to have continued living in Amsterdam or Berlin. Instead, the doors were locked on their historic homeland (by your own admission) at the time they needed them open most.

Should also add that for most of the second world war jews were not being allowed in ANYWHERE.... apart from the unconcious anti-sematism that was prevalent throughout the world and which didnt really begin to dissipate in any real form until after 1945, there was a real fear that any refugee coming in from Europe might be a nazi spy.... and then there was the economic issue of allowing in refugess into a region where people were already in privation.

hard for us to understand with what we know now but we are very differentt from europeans living in the late thirties, early forties.

 

[surrey jim]

Another ship has been interecepted

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10245176.stm

Israeli troops take over Gaza aid ship Rachel Corrie
Israeli troops say they have taken control of an aid ship trying to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip.
Israel's military says soldiers boarded the Irish-owned Rachel Corrie from the sea and did not meet any resistance.
It says the ship is now being taken to the Israeli port of Ashdod. There has been no word from those on board.
The incident comes five days after nine people were killed in clashes when troops boarded a Turkish aid ship, prompting international criticism.
Israel says it will question those on board at the port and transfer the aid to the Gaza Strip by land after checking the cargo for banned items.
There are five Irish and six Malaysian pro-Palestinian activists, plus several crew, on the boat.
The Rachel Corrie is named after a US college student who was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer as she protested over house demolitions in Gaza in 2003.
Israel has blockaded Gaza since 2007, when the Islamist Hamas movement seized control of the territory.
'Full compliance'
The 1,200 tonne cargo ship was boarded about 16 nautical miles (30km) off the Israeli coast.
An Israeli military spokeswoman said there "was full compliance from the crew and passengers on board".
The ship had previously ignored repeated requests to change course, the Israeli military said.
The sea-borne mission has been organised by the Cyprus-based Free Gaza Movement, a coalition of pro-Palestinian groups and human rights organisations.
A spokeswoman for the Free Gaza Movement, Greta Berlin, said Israel's takeover of the ship was "another outrage to add to the nine murdered", the Associated Press news agency reported.
Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev accused the group of hypocrisy, saying "While they appear to use the language of human rights in, their propaganda, it appears they have embraced the [Hamas] regime that has no respect for human rights whatsoever," AP said.
The Rachel Corrie is carrying hundreds of tonnes of aid, including wheelchairs, medical supplies and cement. Construction materials are banned from entering Gaza by Israel, which says they could be used for military purposes by Hamas.
Israel came under fierce criticism after its troops shot dead nine people during a violent confrontation with those on board the Turkish Mavi Marmara in the early hours of Monday
Israel says its commandos were attacked with weapons, including knives, and opened fire in self-defence. Activists on the ship say troops shot at them without provocation.

 

[Alfred the greatx]

(my flatmate found out he was Jewish because he did not know that it ran through the mother's bloodline)

So his mother didn't know she was half jewish or she didn't tell him?
Either way, he was at most 50% jewish and 50% English.
I struggle to understand the attraction of ethnic ancestry. If you have non English ancestry then good for you, but if that is one grandparent, you are clearly 75% English and that makes you English not Jewish.
I have a friend that has one Scottish grandparent and so thinks he is Scottish, trouble is, his Jock mate insist that he is 75% English.

 

[Alfred the greatx]

The reason i need to support Israel and a homeland for jews are people like who givin the chance would put me on a train and not to falmer may i ADD

There you go Bluenose, they never miss a chance to try to stick NAZI on anyone that refuses to be bullied into agreeing with them.

When the world stands back and evaluates this whole situation, in a century or two, the psycologists will still be trying to explain how the Jews who suffered so terribly at the hands of the Nazis, became, in one lifetime, the Nazis themselves, and considered ghetoes and the bombing of civilians acceptable when it was unacceptable when they were on the receiving end.
Israel received huge ammounts of cash from the Germans for their war crimes, how much will the Israelies pay the Palestinians

 

[Juan Albion]

So his mother didn't know she was half jewish or she didn't tell him?
Either way, he was at most 50% jewish and 50% English.
I struggle to understand the attraction of ethnic ancestry. If you have non English ancestry then good for you, but if that is one grandparent, you are clearly 75% English and that makes you English not Jewish.
I have a friend that has one Scottish grandparent and so thinks he is Scottish, trouble is, his Jock mate insist that he is 75% English.

Who cares what his mates think? It is only what he thinks that matters.

 

[Dandyman]

I was going to PM you about this but as you are publicly accusing me of anti-semitism I ask you now to point out a post where I have been anti-semetic rather than anti-zionist?!

And whether you like it or not there are MANY Jews like our mate Daz who do not want to assimilate - or are you gonna deny it and lie about that as well??!!

The ball's in your court!

Anti-Zionists attack Zionism not Jews. Make your mind up on what it is you object to.


Here by the way are some of those nasty Jews who refuse to become part of British life:

Felix Aylmer
Alfie Bass
Claire Bloom
Helena Bonham Carter
Bernard Bresslaw
Eleanor Bron
Joan Collins
Marty Feldman
Fenella Fielding
Laurence Harvey
Leslie Howard
Jason Isaacs
Sid James
David Kossoff
Ron Moody
Janet Suzman
Rachel Weisz
Sam Wanamaker
Zoë Wanamaker
Sacha Baron Cohen
Steven Berkoff
Lionel Blair
Marty Feldman
Stephen Fry
Lesley Joseph
Paul Kaye
Robert Kazinsky television actor
Maureen Lipman
Warren Mitchell
David Rappaport,
Andrew Sachs
David Suchet,

Dani Behr
Vanessa Feltz
Sharon Osbourne
Esther Rantzen
Gaby Roslin
Natasha Kaplinsky
Claudia Winkleman

Michael Grade
Jeremy Isaacs
Sir Alexander Korda
Mike Leigh
John Schlesinger
Michael Winner
Alan Yentob

David Baddiel
Sacha Baron Cohen
Arnold Brown
Ben Elton
Marty Feldman
Bud Flanagan
Jerry Sadowitz
Alexei Sayle

Jenny Abramsky,
Sir Clement Freud
David Jacobs,

Larry Adler
Melanie Blatt
Marc Bolan
Ian Broudie
Craig David,
Justine Frischmann
Mark Knopfler, guitarist, singer and songwriter
Paul Kossoff
Joe Loss
Manfred Mann
Mark Ronson,
Don Arden
Brian Epstein
Harvey Goldsmith
Lionel Bart


If you want I'll also add in a list of scientists and lawyers.

 

[Greeno]

(my flatmate found out he was Jewish because he did not know that it ran through the mother's bloodline)

So his mother didn't know she was half jewish or she didn't tell him?
Either way, he was at most 50% jewish and 50% English.
I struggle to understand the attraction of ethnic ancestry. If you have non English ancestry then good for you, but if that is one grandparent, you are clearly 75% English and that makes you English not Jewish.
I have a friend that has one Scottish grandparent and so thinks he is Scottish, trouble is, his Jock mate insist that he is 75% English.

He knew his grandmother was Jewish because she used to abide by some of the traditions according to his mother, however, his grandmother died before his mother could truly question her Jewish roots as she was very young at the time and I guess she never really thought about it and always assumed both parents must be Jewish.

What you are saying is that it is impossible for someone to be both Jewish and English? I was born in England as were my grandparents and Great Grandparents. I am Jewish. I currently live with non-Jewish flatmates. They are my best friends, yet at the same time I am involved with the Jewish Society. I do not keep many of the rules, yet I still consider myself to be an English Jew. Where is the issue?

 

[Greeno]

There you go Bluenose, they never miss a chance to try to stick NAZI on anyone that refuses to be bullied into agreeing with them.

When the world stands back and evaluates this whole situation, in a century or two, the psycologists will still be trying to explain how the Jews who suffered so terribly at the hands of the Nazis, became, in one lifetime, the Nazis themselves, and considered ghetoes and the bombing of civilians acceptable when it was unacceptable when they were on the receiving end.
Israel received huge ammounts of cash from the Germans for their war crimes, how much will the Israelies pay the Palestinians

Where did i make that quote which you quoted from me?

You still have not addressed my earlier posts. How can you say that it is the Jews that are behind what Israel does when there are as many Jews who live outside of Israel than inside all with their own opinions?

Your ignorance is appalling.