Parking ticket - SASTA !!

[Springal]

So, seeing as the collective are good at this stuff I thought I'd try here first.

As there have been on trains the last 2 days, and with a pre booked important meeting in York, complete with my £140 ticket in hand I was forced to drive to (Southern run station) Dorking to get a South West train to Waterloo.

I arrived and the car park was full, with only 15mins to sort something I parked in a non marked bay, but did not block any other cars or access anywhere. After checking and double checking I paid for 2 days parking , £13 and off I went.

Come back today and noticed a parking ticket on my car due to 'not parking in an allocated bay' ticketed by car park operator Indigo.

£60 if paid within 14 days otherwise £100.

Obviously given all the shit going on AND the fact I've had to drive 30miles each way to get a train and pay parking I'm not happy.

Any advice?

I did see some interesting bits online about bylaws of railway station car parks that said they could not enforce this but need a bit of help.

Cheers

 

[LadySeagull]

Easy peasy. You can win this at POPLA stage appeal, with certain wording (longer than below, this is just to get a POPLA code). Or POPLA will possibly adjourn it and it will time out.

Not one to pay, although you do have to know which firm is which and how to appeal. For example, one current firm is suspended (UKCPS) so you would ignore them and other firms are best not appealing until after the first letter arrives to the keeper.

But in this case, Indigo ones should be appealed on day 26. The registered keeper sends the appeal from MSE:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

Here is a template appeal that doesn't give away the driver & gets a rejection letter with a POPLA code. Yes it needs your postal address, and yes it needs your name as keeper of course.

If you have to appeal as driver (e.g. if yours is a company or hire car, see separate section below) then of course remove the wording about 'not naming the driver' and anything about the POFA 2012 which only protects keepers. Do not appeal if the parking event was in Scotland/NI, see separate section below.


Template appeal for BPA members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:






Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. You have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the BPA Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, for example) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal in your contract, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not give you consent to process data from the DVLA relating to this vehicle, whether you have already obtained it or not.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,

 

[Gwylan]

I'm intrigued by these these threads (which are a regular feature on NSC). It seems that every time someone parks in a private car park and receives a penalty notice, it's non payable.

Two questions about this: are there any circumstances in which a driver HAS to pay this charge? And, if not, why doesn't every driver just pay for an hour, knowing that he or she can leave it without any financial penalty, no matter how long the car is left for?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I'm intrigued by these these threads (which are a regular feature on NSC). It seems that every time someone parks in a private car park and receives a penalty notice, it's non payable.

Two questions about this: are there any circumstances in which a driver HAS to pay this charge? And, if not, why doesn't every driver just pay for an hour, knowing that he or she can leave it without any financial penalty, no matter how long the car is left for?

It's not quite that simple each situation is different depending upon circumstances and operator BUT almost any private 'ticket' is defeatable because the companies don't understand the law ( or they play on drivers not understanding the law ). And the main advice ? It's NOT a penalty !!!!!!!

 

[LadySeagull]

are there any circumstances in which a driver HAS to pay this charge?

Yes, if it's a company that sues people and after defending (and they are defendable) if you lose, then you have to pay after the fat lady (Judge) sings. Not before.

There are grounds for consumers to sue THEM for 'DPA data misuse' breach in some cases now, hence the wording in the above appeal about going after them for £250. These scum firms don't like it! And make no mistake, this isn't an industry to aspire to join.

And, if not, why doesn't every driver just pay for an hour, knowing that he or she can leave it without any financial penalty, no matter how long the car is left for?

Because that is the exact opposite of why people like me do this. We are not trying to get owt for nowt, just to avoid a 3 figure scam charge from a dodgy firm.

And anyone who aims not to pay a small tariff is

(a) an idiot

and

(b) the sort of person who actually caused this industry to rise like it has done in the last 10 years, to the parasitical maniacs they are now.

So, no-one on MSE or pepipoo forum suggests being that idiot, but there are ways to beat almost every one.

 

[fat old seagull]

Easy peasy. You can win this at POPLA stage appeal, with certain wording (longer than below, this is just to get a POPLA code). Or POPLA will possibly adjourn it and it will time out.

Not one to pay, although you do have to know which firm is which and how to appeal. For example, one current firm is suspended (UKCPS) so you would ignore them and other firms are best not appealing until after the first letter arrives to the keeper.

But in this case, Indigo ones should be appealed on day 26. The registered keeper sends the appeal from MSE:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

Here is a template appeal that doesn't give away the driver & gets a rejection letter with a POPLA code. Yes it needs your postal address, and yes it needs your name as keeper of course.

If you have to appeal as driver (e.g. if yours is a company or hire car, see separate section below) then of course remove the wording about 'not naming the driver' and anything about the POFA 2012 which only protects keepers. Do not appeal if the parking event was in Scotland/NI, see separate section below.


Template appeal for BPA members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:






Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. You have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the BPA Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, for example) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal in your contract, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not give you consent to process data from the DVLA relating to this vehicle, whether you have already obtained it or not.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,

I love that....it's almost worthwhile getting a ticket, just to write such a reply. As you will know by now that you have transferred the misery you felt, on finding the ticket, back to them. Whilst they on the other hand, will not only consider you know what you are talking about. But will have to take time to pursue any hoped for payment.

 

[Springal]

Easy peasy. You can win this at POPLA stage appeal, with certain wording (longer than below, this is just to get a POPLA code). Or POPLA will possibly adjourn it and it will time out.

Not one to pay, although you do have to know which firm is which and how to appeal. For example, one current firm is suspended (UKCPS) so you would ignore them and other firms are best not appealing until after the first letter arrives to the keeper.

But in this case, Indigo ones should be appealed on day 26. The registered keeper sends the appeal from MSE:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

Here is a template appeal that doesn't give away the driver & gets a rejection letter with a POPLA code. Yes it needs your postal address, and yes it needs your name as keeper of course.

If you have to appeal as driver (e.g. if yours is a company or hire car, see separate section below) then of course remove the wording about 'not naming the driver' and anything about the POFA 2012 which only protects keepers. Do not appeal if the parking event was in Scotland/NI, see separate section below.


Template appeal for BPA members - copy this wording into the online appeal box or into an email:






Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

Further, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. You have omitted clear information about the process for complaints including a geographical address of the landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the BPA Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, for example) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal in your contract, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not give you consent to process data from the DVLA relating to this vehicle, whether you have already obtained it or not.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,

Excellent, thanks. I'll send them that letter in the new year and see how it goes. I'll keep you posted

 

[LadySeagull]

I think with Indigo you can appeal online or by email? Best not to send a letter to these firms.

I won 3 for a friend at Hove station in the Summer. A cinch, if POPLA hear the cases, although right now they are confused and are adjourning byelaws cases - like these, at railways - which is fine, this type of pseudo penalty* then time out after six months!




* only true of railway byelaws ones, not others from idiots like Excel (PC World) or ParkingEye, they can be pursued for 6 years not 6 months. Still appealable.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I think with Indigo you can appeal online or by email? Best not to send a letter to these firms.

I won 3 for a friend at Hove station in the Summer. A cinch, if POPLA hear the cases, although right now they are confused and are adjourning byelaws cases which is fine, it then times out!

POPLA confused ? Never !

 

[LadySeagull]

The best decision from POPLA last week, wins the prize, was the Assessor who declared that 'a car is not a vehicle'. and dismissed the appeal.

As you know WS, that one is now pinged straight back at POPLA as a formal complaint and copied to the DVLA, to drop POPLA in the sticky stuff, to expose the farcical decisions they sometimes still make. Generally that doesn't happen, POPLA is winnable if you know what to say.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The best decision from POPLA last week, wins the prize, was the Assessor who declared that 'a car is not a vehicle'. and dismissed the appeal.

As you know WS, that one is now pinged straight back at POPLA as a formal complaint and copied to the DVLA, to drop POPLA in the sticky stuff, to expose the farcical decisions they sometimes still make. Generally that doesn't happen, POPLA is winnable if you know what to say.

Indeed CM ... indeed. Keep up the good work.

 

[bhanutz]

Am I the only one that thinks, if you don't park in a designated bay, you should expect and deserve a ticket?

 

[Gwylan]

Yes, if it's a company that sues people and after defending (and they are defendable) if you lose, then you have to pay after the fat lady (Judge) sings. Not before.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to understand. if they have grounds for sueing, why don't they do it more often? There seem to be an infinite varieties of loopholes.

Because that is the exact opposite of why people like me do this. We are not trying to get owt for nowt, just to avoid a 3 figure scam charge from a dodgy firm.

That's laudable but I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who would love to get owt for nowt.

 

[LadySeagull]

if they have grounds for sueing, why don't they do it more often?

Because lots of them are tin-pot knuckle-dragging ex-clampers who would not have a clue! e.g 'Ethical' at Hove Cricket ground and a few others locally.

Some do sue a lot - e.g. ParkingEye and Excel. Still beatable though, in many cases, and always worth a well-researched appeal.

With Indigo, they can't sue re railway land. The truth is, there is no option for a parking firm to take a person to the County Court under excuse of railway byelaws. It is all smoke and mirrors with railway car parks.

 

[Gwylan]

Because lots of them are tin-pot knuckle-dragging ex-clampers who would not have a clue! e.g 'Ethical' at Hove Cricket ground and a few others locally.

Some do sue a lot - e.g. ParkingEye and Excel. Still beatable though, in many cases, and always worth a well-researched appeal.

With Indigo, they can't sue re railway land. The truth is, there is no option for a parking firm to take a person to the County Court under excuse of railway byelaws. It is all smoke and mirrors with railway car parks.

I hold no brief for these parking companies who seem to operate like semi-legal gangsters so it's good to know there are ways around them. Thanks for your answers, it does reinforce the opinion that these charges are rarely enforceable.

 

[albionite]

So, seeing as the collective are good at this stuff I thought I'd try here first.

As there have been on trains the last 2 days, and with a pre booked important meeting in York, complete with my £140 ticket in hand I was forced to drive to (Southern run station) Dorking to get a South West train to Waterloo.

I arrived and the car park was full, with only 15mins to sort something I parked in a non marked bay, but did not block any other cars or access anywhere. After checking and double checking I paid for 2 days parking , £13 and off I went.

Come back today and noticed a parking ticket on my car due to 'not parking in an allocated bay' ticketed by car park operator Indigo.

£60 if paid within 14 days otherwise £100.

Obviously given all the shit going on AND the fact I've had to drive 30miles each way to get a train and pay parking I'm not happy.

Any advice?

I did see some interesting bits online about bylaws of railway station car parks that said they could not enforce this but need a bit of help.

Cheers

Had a few parking pickets from indigo even thou I have a staff pass. They all go in the bin. Expect 5-6 letters before they give up chasing you.

 

[LadySeagull]

Yes that can work with some companies but generally is dangerous (for your wallet and your stress levels) advice these days, better to get them cancelled where you can.

You would probably be OK with Indigo but plenty of firms would sue. So I wouldn't want people skim-reading this and thinking it is still OK to ignore these private parking tickets, like it was 5 years ago. We all used to ignore them then an dyou will hear people still say it now. That isn't good advice generally. Those who do sue are very quick to do so, for example Co-op staff found themselves sued by the parking firm at Co-op car parks, en masse, when Civil enforcement was dumped by the Co-op they started 'revenge claims' against staff & customers for unpaid tickets.

And with railway land there is potentially the chance of a Train Operator pursuing a 'penalty' via Magistrates' Court, which by all accounts, is what Northern Rail do. Not good.

 

[fat old seagull]

Am I the only one that thinks, if you don't park in a designated bay, you should expect and deserve a ticket?

Yep, seems you are!

 

[1066familyman]

I just got a PCN for finding myself in a bus lane zone in an unfamiliar town. Even though as soon as I realised my mistake I turned around as soon as I was able to do so, I still got a ticket. Genuine mistake, but they have me bang to rights with all the camera evidence. I did fall victim to this years ago near St.Pancreas station as well.

I'll be paying up as I can't see any grounds for appeal. Basically I should have been paying more attention and I hold my hands up as it was my own silly fault.

I was thinking that it would be a nice touch if councils could perhaps give a courtesy first offence let off in these cases. They can see from the vehicle details that I'm not local and must know it was a genuine mistake. Good revenue raiser though I suspect and it would cost them to be lenient with first offenders. Oh well, I realise ignorance is no defence in law and so have to write it off as a 30quid lesson learnt

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

May I just voice a word of endorsement for Lady Seagull.

She successfully helped me [well did most of the work actually] to appeal a Parking Eye gotcha and saved me £60.

She knows her onions that lass!