[Help] Parking fine advice

[drew]

I'm all for people who are incorrectly given a ticket fighting but why when you have parked for 20 minutes not get a ticket?

I presume in this case part of the evidence submitted in defence was evidence of a 20 minute phone call?

We all get pissed off when people get off crimes on technicalities but it seems people are all to willing to seek every recourse to get out of a parking ticket!!!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I'm all for people who are incorrectly given a ticket fighting but why when you have parked for 20 minutes not get a ticket?

I presume in this case part of the evidence submitted in defence was evidence of a 20 minute phone call?

We all get pissed off when people get off crimes on technicalities but it seems people are all to willing to seek every recourse to get out of a parking ticket!!!

I don't have an issue with a council issuing a ticket and getting it paid ( just as long as it's valid ) BUT I do have an issue with a private company doing it - especially as these private companies use bullying and in many cases criminal practices to get the money. There is no real control over these private companies - the BPA is a joke organisation who are in on the scam. 'Fines' from these companies should only reflect damages - what is the damage from the OP stopping for 20 minutes and not paying ? £1.50 judging by a previous post .... not £50.

 

[LadySeagull]

Didn’t know that council sites are not allowed to enforce via ANPR (if I’ve read this correctly?)

Assume if I have already paid a fine (I was caught by ANPR) I have little chance of getting back?


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Councils were banned from using ANPR in car parks a few years ago, and also can't enforce their public access car parks as if they were private land. The set up at Stanmer Park is also unlawful, even though it doesn't use ANPR, because the private firm lie that the registered keeper is liable. Not true on this land.

Councils can use ANPR on street or by using those little camera cars, for limited issues like people parking on school zig zags.

Where did you get an ANPR PCN and was it definitely Council owned land?

 

[Official Old Man]

Councils were banned from using ANPR in car parks a few years ago, and also can't enforce their public access car parks as if they were private land. The set up at Stanmer Park is also unlawful, even though it doesn't use ANPR, because the private firm lie that the registered keeper is liable. Not true on this land.

Councils can use ANPR on street or by using those little camera cars, for limited issues like people parking on school zig zags.

Where did you get an ANPR PCN and was it definitely Council owned land?

Lady Seagull
Can I clarify what you are saying, in my case Uckfield. Council run the town centre car parks and, although free, have 3 hour restrictions. Are you saying that a council can not use ANPR in these car parks?

 

[LadySeagull]

Yes, I am saying it has been disallowed since 2015.

There are two things here.

Councils cannot:

1 - use ANPR except in limited cases as shown below, and separately (regardless of ANPR or not) they cannot:

2 - operate their car parks ''as if they were private land''.

http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?topic=4512.0

http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?topic=4861.0

[MENTION=36893]London Black Cab[/MENTION], did they issue the PCN by post themselves, or do they also use a scammer firm to pretend it's private land?

People can potentially get their money back by complaining to the Council if they paid as a result of a PCN by post, that was issued after 1st April 2015 and where ANPR was used in a Council owned car park. Then they need to escalate the complaint (free) to the Local Authorities Ombudsman, citing the January 2019 Kent decision where a registered keeper was misled about their liability.

Full report from the Kent case about a private firm lying to a registered keeper (exactly like the illegal way parking enforcement at Stanmer Park is operated at the mo):

https://www.lgo.org.uk/assets/attach/4521/REPORT 17004169 KENT CC.pdf

To remedy the injustice identified in this report the Council has agreed to carry out the following actions:
• pay Mr X £100 for time and trouble within one month; and
• stop issuing parking penalties at Lullingstone Country Park and at its other parks that use the same enforcement process, until it has put in place appropriate arrangements.

Councils are not allowed to use ANPR in their car parks. I also know that Horsham Swan Walk car park was being run with ANPR cameras, too, not sure if they've ditched it by now. I helped a colleague whose son had been caught out there but didn't push it to get them banned because they were not using a scammer firm.

Here is a pepipoo forum thread where we first heard about the ANPR being used at Beach Green, but once the person's PCN was cancelled they stopped pushing:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125343

Here is what happened in Wycombe where my friend made official complaints about the illegality:

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2014/08/wycombe-district-council-banned-for.html

https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/ne...e-to-accept-responsibility-for-anpr-failures/

Councils can't just remove their publicly accessible car parks from the statutory regime of real PCNs under the Traffic Management Act and can't use ANPR at all.
It's discussed in this briefing paper:

http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN02235/SN02235.pdf.

''Enforcement with approved devices

Section 53 of the Deregulation Act 2015 provides the Secretary of State with an enabling power that allows for the prohibition of CCTV or‘other devices’ in connection with parking enforcement. Some CCTV uses ANPR technology.

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2015 (SI 2015/1001), made under section 53, came into force on 1 April 2015. They tighten the circumstances in which CCTV may be used as the sole evidence for issuing an on-street parking ticket but they do not prohibit the use of CCTV for on-street parking enforcement entirely.

The Government’s revised parking guidance to local authorities sets out how this should work in practice:

Traffic Management Act 2004 Regulations give limited powers to authorities throughout England to issue penalty charge notices for contraventions detected solely with a camera and associated recording equipment (approved device). Any such device must be certified by the Secretary of State. Once certified they may be called an ‘approved device’. To comply with certification the system must be used in accordance with the Guidelines issued by the Vehicles Certification Agency.

From 1 April 2015 penalty charge notices must not be served by post on the basis of evidence from an approved device other than when vehicles are parked on:

•a bus lane;
•a bus stop clearway or bus stand clearway;
•a Keep Clear zigzag area outside schools;
or
•a red route.

Where approved devices may be used, the Secretary of State recommends that approved devices are used only where enforcement is difficult or sensitive and enforcement by a civil parking officer is not practical. It is recommended that the authority sends a copy of the record of the contravention (in the form of a still image or images) with the penalty charge notice. Where enforcement authorities are using camera enforcement in the circumstances set out [above], the enforcement policy needs to be well publicised and indicated with conspicuously placed, lawful traffic signs.

 

[LadySeagull]

Just to add, when you need to stop to take a call or re-set a SAT NAV, never ever drive into a car park to do that.

This is stuff that can be done on street.

Certainly if you are picking a passenger up, are you all aware that this is 'exempt activity' that is positively allowed on single or double yellows, and that's where to stop? Every day I see idiots pulling over into bus stops (no doubt as they look a bit like a layby) say to drop kids at school...yet that's a place you can get an instant PCN, and next to the bus stop is a run of double yellows that the idiots have avoided.

So, if for example you are picking someone up from a station, never use the station car park as many are infested with Indigo/ANPR. Stop on double yellows just outside, on street (as long as there are no yellow kerb 'blips' too).

Talking of stations, did the cabbies here notice that the signs from Indigo at the back of Brighton station now ban ALL TAXIS. I was there and saw the new signs and half a dozen clueless cab drivers going through. ANPR will catch them and if there is a taxi plate visible then expect a scam PCN from Indigo.

Avoid that place at the back of Brighton station unless you are not a taxi driver and time yourself as there is a 20 min limit.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Councils were banned from using ANPR in car parks a few years ago, and also can't enforce their public access car parks as if they were private land. The set up at Stanmer Park is also unlawful, even though it doesn't use ANPR, because the private firm lie that the registered keeper is liable. Not true on this land.

Councils can use ANPR on street or by using those little camera cars, for limited issues like people parking on school zig zags.

Where did you get an ANPR PCN and was it definitely Council owned land?

Was in Crawley
Pretty certain it’s council land run on behalf of a private company


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[LadySeagull]

Other way round. Private firm, but you shouldn't be paying PCNs like that!

 

[Weststander]

True......

I’ve just had a battle over a ticket myself at Lewes Station. Can’t work out why (and they never explained) they issued a ticket as I was legally parked (in a disabled bay, with my neighbour’s blue badge correctly displayed as I took him to the Man City game). Luckily I had a text receipt to acknowledge registering on arrival and a copy of the badge. Still got a very patronising ‘on this occasion we’ll waive the ticket’ - bloody right you will, it was incorrectly issued........

If a blue badge is displayed, is it unlimited time wise? For example, for four hours off to a sports event, or parking there for say a day or two?

(Genuine question, no angle).

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

Other way round. Private firm, but you shouldn't be paying PCNs like that!

Sorry I meant private firm running on behalf of council on council land

Is there any point querying it in view I’ve already paid?


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[dazzer6666]

If a blue badge is displayed, is it unlimited time wise? For example, for four hours off to a sports event, or parking there for say a day or two?

(Genuine question, no angle).

Didn’t know, so looked it up (on the day in question I trusted my neighbour who was sure it was not time limited). Coped from t’interweb :

Your Blue Badge usually lets you park for free:

-on streets with parking meters or pay-and-display machines for as long as you need to
-in disabled parking bays on streets for as long as you need to, unless a sign says there is a time limit
-on single or double yellow lines for up to 3 hours unless there’s a ‘no loading’ sign

 

[Official Old Man]

I've just read most of the Parking Policy in England House of Commons paper http://researchbriefings.files.parli...35/SN02235.pdf.
There's some interesting stuff in there about 10 minutes grace, mobile CCTV cars and the such, but at the bottom of page 8 and top of 9 is this-
From 1 April 2015 penalty charge notices must not be served by post on the basis of evidence from an approved device (previous paragraph states this to be CCTV) other than when vehicles are parked on:
• a bus lane;
• a bus stop clearway or bus stand clearway;
• a Keep Clear zigzag area outside schools; or
• a red route.
Surely now the question is Why are the councils using CCTV to fine drivers?

 

[PeterOut]

A question for Lady Seagull - it is very clear from what you say that local authorities (Councils) can not use ANPR in their car parks.
Does the same restriction apply to NHS car parks, i.e. hospital car parks?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

A question for Lady Seagull - it is very clear from what you say that local authorities (Councils) can not use ANPR in their car parks.
Does the same restriction apply to NHS car parks, i.e. hospital car parks?

Nope - they are allowed to use ANPR and do and use some very unsavoury companies to enforce it. Some people will defend it's use at hospitals but IMO it's nothing more than a tax on the sick. Parking should be free as it is in Wales and Scotland.

 

[dadams2k11]

Check this group out on FaceAche.


Parking tickets my arse.

 

[227 BHA]

My son has also had a ticket from Beach Green, Lancing (he parked up with his mates at 9pm didn’t leave the car) - are we saying this is council owned land and falls into this illegal area in which case should we just appeal quoting the post 2015 blurb? (as we haven’t paid yet)

 

[symyjym]

It's different from the normal road parking bays policed by wardens with cameras where if you are in the car they will just ignore you and walk past. An actual car park though I would expect to have to pay whether I was sitting in the car or not. We couldn't use that excuse in an large NCP car park.

Edit: Any outside car park with an invented height restriction barrier looks a bit dodgy tbf.

 

[Mtoto]

Just to add, when you need to stop to take a call or re-set a SAT NAV, never ever drive into a car park to do that.

This is stuff that can be done on street.

Certainly if you are picking a passenger up, are you all aware that this is 'exempt activity' that is positively allowed on single or double yellows, and that's where to stop? Every day I see idiots pulling over into bus stops (no doubt as they look a bit like a layby) say to drop kids at school...yet that's a place you can get an instant PCN, and next to the bus stop is a run of double yellows that the idiots have avoided.

So, if for example you are picking someone up from a station, never use the station car park as many are infested with Indigo/ANPR. Stop on double yellows just outside, on street (as long as there are no yellow kerb 'blips' too).

Talking of stations, did the cabbies here notice that the signs from Indigo at the back of Brighton station now ban ALL TAXIS. I was there and saw the new signs and half a dozen clueless cab drivers going through. ANPR will catch them and if there is a taxi plate visible then expect a scam PCN from Indigo.

Avoid that place at the back of Brighton station unless you are not a taxi driver and time yourself as there is a 20 min limit.

Brilliant. Avoid paying for the car park if you're picking someone up from the station by stopping on the double-yellows right outside instead. It's not as if the double-yellows are there for a reason, after all. It's just political correctness gone mad. You've got a car, so you're entitled to stop wherever you please without having to pay for it. And if a pedestrian gets run over while you're causing an obstruction, that's their problem, yes?

 

[drew]

Brilliant. Avoid paying for the car park if you're picking someone up from the station by stopping on the double-yellows right outside instead. It's not as if the double-yellows are there for a reason, after all. It's just political correctness gone mad. You've got a car, so you're entitled to stop wherever you please without having to pay for it. And if a pedestrian gets run over while you're causing an obstruction, that's their problem, yes?

Have to agree. Seems it is all self self self. What suits me is fine irrespective of the inconvenience to others. This started as thread by someone who used a car park for 20 minutes and didn't think they had an obligation to pay!!!

What I don't understand is why is it illegal for councils to use ANPR technology? What is the reasoning for not allowing it.

 

[drew]

Nope - they are allowed to use ANPR and do and use some very unsavoury companies to enforce it. Some people will defend it's use at hospitals but IMO it's nothing more than a tax on the sick. Parking should be free as it is in Wales and Scotland.

I agree re NHS but it is a source of much needed revenue. If the government financed it fairly then we could get things back like free prescriptions, hospital parking etc etc.