[Travel] P and O

[WATFORD zero]

I think you are both desperately searching for a brexit angle to be honest.

I don't think you have to look beyond the pandemic and a company owned by an offshore investment group that is determined to squeeze out as much profit as possible and a government that has consistently made clear it wants to encourage this kind of 'investment'. The government was shite and corporations were serewing workers before brexit. The govenment is shite and corporations are screwing workers post brexit. Just maybe Brexit is a symptom not a cause?

I voted to remain, but honestly the endless attempts by some to blame every f*cking thing on Brexit (and those that voted for it) is tedious. And continues to play into the hands of the nationalist right.

The Brexit/Covid problems hit P&O a year ago

P&O Ferries fighting to stay afloat

The P&O Ferries group is fighting for survival, admitting that there is a material uncertainty it can carry on as a going concern unless it gets fresh capital from its Dubai-based owner and negotiates more concessions from its creditors. The company has been hit by a dearth of passengers because of lockdowns and reduced trade across the Channel during the Brexit transition. Last year it laid off 1,100 people and it says it will continue to require forbearance from creditors.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p-amp-o-ferries-fighting-to-stay-afloat-sl5rxk6bm

As I said earlier, I suspect that this current situation is a culmination of those ongoing problems, possibly exacerbated by the Russian Sanctions/economic collapse.

I'm sorry but P&O have had funding problems, caused by Brexit and Covid for well over a year. It's all laid out in black and white by P&O themselves.

As I said above, I'm not sure what has caused this latest round of redundancies, but it wasn't completely unexpected. Now as I have repeatedly said I don't know why French, Irish and Dutch seafarers haven't been made redundant whilst British seafarers have (and this may have nothing to do with Brexit) but to try and claim Brexit isn't part of P&O's underlying problem is just ridiculous.

The underlying financial problems being experienced by P&O are quite simply, and admitted to themselves, Brexit and Covid induced, and I really don't know how anyone can put any sort of factual case to the contrary.

It's not about 'trying to find a Brexit angle', it's the simple facts of the matter

Now back to the thread, why do people believe that French, Dutch and Irish seafarers still have their jobs, whilst British seafarers don't ?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Well since you're over here on the big board where people generally indulge in responsible discussions, rather than using one line insults, I would be interested to know your view of why P&O have only made the British Seafarers redundant and why French, Dutch and Irish seafarers on the same services haven't also been made redundant ?

Ask the Foreign owners I didn't make the decision or you could carry on pissing into the wind on the topic

Regards
DF

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I think it's a symptom not a cause and a (purposeful) distraction from discussions of capital and class and inequality and power. And as you and others on this board have proved to me. It has worked.

But my experience is there is no point trying to pursuade anyone on either extreme, that Brexit isn't the most important thing to have happened ever and the cause of everything good, or bad, that will ever happen in this country. And as I have said, the endless recycling of the same disussion is just so tedious

I'm sorry to have picked this particular discussion and your particular posts to vent my frustration. It's a general frustration, not unique to this board and not personal. But I'm out

We will have to agree to disagree, but I will say there’s no need to apologise to me.

 

[Eric the meek]

I'm sorry but P&O have had funding problems, caused by Brexit and Covid for well over a year. It's all laid out in black and white.

As I said above, I'm not sure what has caused this latest round of redundancies, but it wasn't completely unexpected. Now as I have repeatedly said I don't know why French, Irish and Dutch seafarers haven't been made redundant whilst British seafarers have (and this may have nothing to do with Brexit) but to try and claim Brexit isn't part of P&O's underlying problem is just ridiculous.

The underlying financial problems being experienced by P&O are quite simply, and admitted to themselves, Brexit and Covid induced, and I really don't know how anyone can put any sort of factual case to the contrary.

It's not about 'trying to find a Brexit angle', it's the simple facts of the matter

Now back to the thread, why do people believe that French, Dutch and Irish seafarers still have their jobs, whilst British seafarers don't ?

Cost of employing them? Cost of making them redundant? EU / national employment law? Ease and cost of replacing them with agency staff who have no employment rights?
Performance and productivity would normally also feature, but I think P&O's problems are probably beyond that. This is all about cost.

When you throw all those things into the mix, and the result is all 800 redundancies fall into the one nationality that isn't in the EU,
statistically, that's akin to saying that Brighton will sign a 30 goal a season striker*.

*Don't quote me on that.

 

[A1X]

I think you are both desperately searching for a brexit angle to be honest.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but it’s curious that this has happened to P&O’s UK staff and not their Irish or French staff.

 

[beorhthelm]

Cost of employing them? Cost of making them redundant? EU / national employment law? Ease and cost of replacing them with agency staff who have no employment rights?
Performance and productivity would normally also feature, but I think P&O's problems are probably beyond that. This is all about cost.

When you throw all those things into the mix, and the result is all 800 redundancies fall into the one nationality that isn't in the EU,
statistically, that's akin to saying that Brighton will sign a 30 goal a season striker*.

*Don't quote me on that.

needs to be pointed out that UK employment law doesn't recognise nationality. if you have a right to work, you can take up a job if you're Columbian, Irish, Dutch, Polish, Filipino or anything, and law applies. the question is if the UK based jobs have been targeted. if they're replacing with Columbian or east European as reported, they'll need to have right to work in UK, unless the jobs are not actually UK based.

 

[Eric the meek]

needs to be pointed out that UK employment law doesn't recognise nationality. if you have a right to work, you can take up a job if you're Columbian, Irish, Dutch, Polish, Filipino or anything, and law applies. the question is if the UK based jobs have been targeted. if they're replacing with Columbian or east European as reported, they'll need to have right to work in UK, unless the jobs are not actually UK based.

I suspect that is correct. As Brighton fans, we have a heads up on that kind of thing.

But I also suspect P&O have got it covered. The fact that they had agency workers (from a variety of nations) lined up and waiting in vans on the quayside to replace the British workers, somewhat supports this view.

I'm no expert, but the fact that P&O are employing 'agency' workers (who, being employed by an agency, will not have employment contracts with P&O, and who will not have any employment rights with P&O) could be the determining factor?

I might be wrong, and P&O might have made an almighty cock-up, but......

It might be all academic anyway. For P&O to do this, might mean they are going bust in any event, Brexit just helping them to slide down the pan.

 

[Baker lite]

https://twitter.com/paulembery/status/1505618559501803524?s=21
An interesting article from the usually hysterical Grauniad.

 

[WATFORD zero]

https://twitter.com/paulembery/status/1505618559501803524?s=21
An interesting article from the usually hysterical Grauniad.

Have you and your RMT brethren decided yet what action you are going to take against this awful P&O corporation and Johnson's Government. The one that is even prepared to put up Government filibusters in order to stop legislation going through which would protect workers against fire and rehire policies

 

[nicko31]

RMT from April 2016...

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/

It told its members, including P&O staff, to back Brexit because…

“The EU has promoted undercutting & social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers”

Going well eh...

 

[Baker lite]

Have you and your RMT brethren decided yet what action you are going to take against this awful P&O corporation and Johnson's Government. The one that is even prepared to put up Government filibusters in order to stop legislation going through which would protect workers against fire and rehire policies

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rehire-keir-starmer-david-evans-b1889879.html
Perhaps I could ask your mate, Sir kneel.

 

[Eric the meek]

RMT from April 2016...

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/

It told its members, including P&O staff, to back Brexit because…

“The EU has promoted undercutting & social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers”

Going well eh...

To think that the UK seafarers will have paid money they earned, as union subs, for years.

And then, having paid their union subs for years, many will presumably have followed the advice of their union to back Brexit.

That's a very hard lesson for the UK seafarers to learn.

 

[Baker lite]

To think that the UK seafarers will have paid money they earned, as union subs, for years.

And then, having paid their union subs for years, many will presumably have followed the advice of their union to back Brexit.

That's a very hard lesson for the UK seafarers to learn.

Good job that this whole debacle had absolutely nothing to with Brexit then. Only in the eyes of hysterical shills, they seem to celebrate every job loss since 2016. Very sad.

 

[Eric the meek]

Good job that this whole debacle had absolutely nothing to with Brexit then. Only in the eyes of hysterical shills, they seem to celebrate every job loss since 2016. Very sad.

Poor heckle.

I'm not celebrating the job losses at all. I think they are a disaster, for the UK seafarers and their families.

The fact that you have jumped to that conclusion. based on no evidence whatsoever, and fail to even acknowledge that the RMT have singularly failed in their prime objective, to protect the jobs of their members, sails straight over your head.

 

[nicko31]

Good job that this whole debacle had absolutely nothing to with Brexit then. Only in the eyes of hysterical shills, they seem to celebrate every job loss since 2016. Very sad.

Contempt for conman, compassion for the conned

Corrupt offshore media, opaquely funded think tanks, Russian infiltration of political system and cheerleaders that divest from the UK at the first time of trouble

All I can say is what your back, could be you next...

 

[beorhthelm]

RMT from April 2016...

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-sets-out-six-key-reasons-for-leaving-the-eu/

It told its members, including P&O staff, to back Brexit because…

“The EU has promoted undercutting & social dumping leading to the decimation of UK seafarers”

Going well eh...

reading a bit the background on that, there were cases of Irish Ferries in particular sacking staff and replacing with cheaper east european crew (so same mode as P&O). the RMT believed that this was because its allowed under EU rules, so being out of EU should mean keeping UK jobs for UK members. of course in reality it doesnt mean anything of the sort.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

£1.80 an hour!

[tweet]1505849476136714241[/tweet]

 

[nicko31]

£1.80 an hour!

[tweet]1505849476136714241[/tweet]

The silence is deafening from certain disaster capitalists in our ruling party, a blue print for future!!!

 

[Boys 9d]

Is there any deterrent to stop these new seamen jumping ship while in a British port and disappearing into the black economy?

 

[Hamilton]

Is there any deterrent to stop these new seamen jumping ship while in a British port and disappearing into the black economy?

And that’s what you care about?

Other than port and border security, no there isn’t. Good grief.