[Politics] Owen Jones

[Weststander]

A theory not unlike a successful and equitable socialist governed country.... a flawed figment of a cheap cider addled student union activist's fevered imagination.

From the experts including the respected IFS, the Laffer Curve effect is real. For example from 30:00.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

As someone who works in the taxation field, the Laffer Curve effect absolutely is a real thing.

Business people and other decent earners alter working life behavior and arrangements to not pay higher rate, additional rate and the tax cliff at £100,001 income. Treasury specific tax change documents quantify the lower tax yield over a relatively short time from new taxes.

Example are reducing working hours, deliberately turning away business growth opportunities, tax planning eg upping pension contributions.

@Harry Wilson's tackle nailed this with there should be a higher personal allowance then a single tax rate. My idea is more nuanced with gently graduated tax rates, but that’s complicated to admin.

This would incentivise and end much of the shenanigans that goes on to prevent marginal tax rates of 60% and 45%.

I don’t doubt some individuals and/or businesses alter their behaviour based on tax but equally others will not, staff are incentivised by many things and business decisions also have a variety of inputs other than tax levels.

Whilst the very basic premise of Laffer holds it is theory, it can only be estimated and aa I understand isn’t a particularly robust estimate, the response to tax isn’t a simple curve.

I’m for simplifying tax and broadly agree with HWT. German tax is simple for healthcare but very complicated for income tax.

 

[Weststander]

I don’t doubt some individuals and/or businesses alter their behaviour based on tax but equally others will not, staff are incentivised by many things and business decisions also have a variety of inputs other than tax levels.

Whilst the very basic premise of Laffer holds it is theory, it can only be estimated and aa I understand isn’t a particularly robust estimate.

I’m for simplifying tax and broadly agree with HWT. German tax is simple for healthcare but very complicated for income tax.

The SNP’s tax increase of just an additional 1% higher rate tax was forecast to raise £53m a year, it raised £8m.

In general people who can set their level of work and/or income, 5.6m and growing fast amongst Gen Z, if things go well, are encouraged by tax rates to cap income at £50,270 or £100,000 per tax payer.

 

[London Pompous]

I still prefer cash payments instead of card as they are tax free.

 

[Weststander]

Rent-a-gob Owen Jones also childishly stuck his snout into the Kate Middleton trolling. The musings of a snide, not someone to be taken seriously. Sadly we’ll regularly see his face over the next 5 or 10 years as he attempts to help derail a Labour government.

“Journalist and political activist Owen Jones has also expressed remorse for adding to commentary on Kate’s whereabouts.

After a photo of Kate and her three children was recalled by photo agencies after realising it had been manipulated, Jones remarked on the “kill notice” with: “I am so obsessed with this already omg!!”

Another post featured Jones sharing his scepticism about a photograph of Kate and Prince William in a car together. He wrote: “You have to be kidding me. That is not a public appearance. Choo choo! All aboard the Kate Middleton truther express!”

 

[PascalGroß Tips]

Rent-a-gob Owen Jones also childishly stuck his snout into the Kate Middleton trolling. The musings of a snide, not someone to be taken seriously. Sadly we’ll regularly see his face over the next 5 or 10 years as he attempts to help derail a Labour government.

“Journalist and political activist Owen Jones has also expressed remorse for adding to commentary on Kate’s whereabouts.

After a photo of Kate and her three children was recalled by photo agencies after realising it had been manipulated, Jones remarked on the “kill notice” with: “I am so obsessed with this already omg!!”

Another post featured Jones sharing his scepticism about a photograph of Kate and Prince William in a car together. He wrote: “You have to be kidding me. That is not a public appearance. Choo choo! All aboard the Kate Middleton truther express!”

OJ is no journalist, he's an activist trying to make a living by spouting his nonsense.

He blocked me on twitter a number of years ago when I simply replied to a tweet of his with a link to a fact check to disprove something he'd claimed.

His latest comments on on Kate Middleton tell you all you need to know about the little weasel. Your 'Rent-a-gob' description is spot on.

 

[cjd]

Well, the second thing on my list was ‘higher taxation’, so that could be a clue.

But no, you have really got me there - it’s true that I have not fully costed my ideological wish list.

Although, for the benefit again of those choosing not to read what has been written - I was very clear that these are not suggestions for immediate implementation - but that rather, I‘m comfortable with supporting Starmer’s centrist agenda for purposes of ousting the appalling incumbents - and to THEN seek to steer the thinking to the left. So these are things I’d like to see some day. And as for any suggestion that it is not possible to fund them - they are almost all things we’ve had before.

Thankyou for your reply.

I wasn't looking for an excuse to knock your post at all, but I was more interested in your suggestions as you say you are more left than the Labour Party.

A few of your suggestions I really liked too ( abolishing faith schools, index linked pay for medical staff, 100% free tuition fees for those studying for services and skills we are desperately short of) , but I don't have the costings to hand , so rather pointless for me to want to promote them. I hope they can be afforded , but will await those who know more for their input.

 

[London Pompous]

Back to Owen Jones, always easier to be self satisfyingly sneerInglot smug in opposition whilst sipping a flat white in Islington than getting your hands dirty and having to make the decisions whilst in power.

Cannot stand the Tory press myself but their influence is overstated as fewer people read papers these days.

Public were offered a chance of a more left government in 2019 and voted instead for an untrustworthy Etonian lying buffoon, who was only interested in filling his pockets and those of his cronies. They chose the latter because the alternative offered didn’t stack up.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Thankyou for your reply.

I wasn't looking for an excuse to knock your post at all, but I was more interested in your suggestions as you say you are more left than the Labour Party.

A few of your suggestions I really liked too ( abolishing faith schools, index linked pay for medical staff, 100% free tuition fees for those studying for services and skills we are desperately short of) , but I don't have the costings to hand , so rather pointless for me to want to promote them. I hope they can be afforded , but will await those who know more for their input.

Well unless you are the Chancellor of the Exchequer or a senior government advisor, you are never going to have ‘the full costings to hand’ so by that argument, should never propose or support ANYTHING.

It is well within the remit of the public to suggest actions and policies, and if they are so inclined - to actively agitate / demonstrate / lobby for them to be seriously considered. It’s the job of the government of the day, to implement the best of those ideas that they can afford.

And it isn’t just loony lefty dreams that cost money, remember. Compulsorily purchasing huge swathes of countryside for train lines you then cancel (then selling it off cheap to your ‘associates’) costs a lot of money. Inventing and not implementing deliberately nasty anti-immigration schemes like the Rwanda (SWAP) nonsense costs a lot of money. Paying enormous subsidies and tax breaks to foreign entities who own OUR national industries, costs a lot of money - especially when those entities pocket the bung and then close it all down anyway, like at Port Talbot.

 

[cjd]

From the experts including the respected IFS, the Laffer Curve effect is real. For example from 30:00.

A fascinating video. Certainly not a waste of 46 minutes of life either.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

To the left politicians and their supporters so pure their sh1t doesn't smell. To the right politicians and their supporters who aren't rascist but just want our country back. I hope Jones and all the others who fall into either camp here, get utterly marginalised in the coming election.

We need politicians who CAN compromise and who are brave enough to pick the least bad option and convince others when there isn't a good/right choice on the table.

SPOT ON. Some comments on line show there so very militant left wingers who know we we likely have a centre government, but want hard left policies and those on the right who are despairing and want hard right policies re Rwanda.

NO NO and NO. We need stability from the centre ground right now, taking in good ideas from the right and left and steadying the course of the ship. Do I think Labour are tories in disguise, no, they are just much more in the centre than they have ever been within the last 15 years.

 

[Exilegull]

Problem is the same old story of boomers and middle class house owners wanting a "centrist" (meaning firmly right wing if measured by 20th century standards) party and young people wanting actual change. Its like something happens when youre 50-60 and you get scared people arent you to the point you pretend theyre you and would make choices based on you. But just like in most elections the last 50 years the old haggards happy with the slow deterioration of our country are demonising younger generations asking for change and youve seen the results and youre going to see the results again. Young people are not going to vote centrist because they dont share the idea that "centrism" is perfection they see it as cowardly ideas taking us nowhere. "Lets just have a non descript centrist party and everyone will vote for it" has been the idea of our middle class forever and its always been about this egotistical desire not to pay taxes

 

[cjd]

Well unless you are the Chancellor of the Exchequer or a senior government advisor, you are never going to have ‘the full costings to hand’ so by that argument, should never propose or support ANYTHING.

It is well within the remit of the public to suggest actions and policies, and if they are so inclined - to actively agitate / demonstrate / lobby for them to be seriously considered. It’s the job of the government of the day, to implement the best of those ideas that they can afford.

And it isn’t just loony lefty dreams that cost money, remember. Compulsorily purchasing huge swathes of countryside for train lines you then cancel (then selling it off cheap to your ‘associates’) costs a lot of money. Inventing and not implementing deliberately nasty anti-immigration schemes like the Rwanda (SWAP) nonsense costs a lot of money. Paying enormous subsidies and tax breaks to foreign entities who own OUR national industries, costs a lot of money - especially when those entities pocket the bung and then close it all down anyway, like at Port Talbot.

Once again thankyou for taking the time for your response ( even though I didn't actually ask for one ).

I don't think I suggested that people should never propose or support ANYTHING...( is it clearer if it's written in capitals..? ). I merely said I wouldn't PROMOTE ( is that better ? ) something if I didn't know the costs ( or estimated costs for clarity here ).

I think we have all seen the inglorious f**k up that Liz Truss and her Chancellor at the time made, by not finding out facts first.

I'm all for proposals and suggestions. Always have been. I just originally wanted to know if they had been costed.

On the positive side it gave you somehow, the excuse to have a rant about other things that really offend you too, so not all bad, was it..?

 

[Pevenseagull]

OJ is no journalist, he's an activist trying to make a living by spouting his nonsense.

He blocked me on twitter a number of years ago when I simply replied to a tweet of his with a link to a fact check to disprove something he'd claimed.

He blocked me for posting that ,excluding the Blair elections, since 1945 Labour have only had a majority of more than 5 once.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I’d advocate the re-nationalisation of utilities and transport networks. Agree (although British Rail was pretty awful too)

higher taxation. Agree - as long as we know what the extra taxation is being spent on. Money is not always the answer....

and social care budgets Agree

complete reform of the asylum system,. More details required - what do you mean...?

immediate commencement of exploratory talks to rejoin the single market. Agree

, abolishment of private schools. Disagree (although I'd withdraw charitable status) Disagree - what people spend their money on is their business

Would you abolish Private health care too?

abolishment of faith schools. Agree

massive investment in public transport infrastructure Agree

inflation-linked pay increases for front line teaching and medical staff, Agree - however the pensions of some Public Sector workers (esp. some Civil Servants) to be reviewed/amended (some currently get 27% of salary paid to their pensions)

the banning of foreign ownership of UK print media. Agree

immediate striking from the books of the new laws on protesting. Agree

and a scrapping of 100% of tuition fees for students taking degrees in teaching, medicine and other skills shortfalls (linked to a commitment to a minimum period of public service after graduation). Agree - although there are SO many subjects we are short on, this could get difficult/expensive

 

[aolstudios]

Would you abolish Private health care too?

I would, yes.
Pie in the sky I know, & I'm right behind Starmer. But education & health just feel like things that ought to be a right, not a privilege

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Problem is the same old story of boomers and middle class house owners wanting a "centrist" (meaning firmly right wing if measured by 20th century standards) party and young people wanting actual change. Its like something happens when youre 50-60 and you get scared people arent you to the point you pretend theyre you and would make choices based on you. But just like in most elections the last 50 years the old haggards happy with the slow deterioration of our country are demonising younger generations asking for change and youve seen the results and youre going to see the results again. Young people are not going to vote centrist because they dont share the idea that "centrism" is perfection they see it as cowardly ideas taking us nowhere. "Lets just have a non descript centrist party and everyone will vote for it" has been the idea of our middle class forever and its always been about this egotistical desire not to pay taxes

And yet, here I am - a 53 year old middle-class home owner, arguing to raise taxes and drag the country to the left.

Generalisations, eh?

 

[heathgate]

Problem is the same old story of boomers and middle class house owners wanting a "centrist" (meaning firmly right wing if measured by 20th century standards) party and young people wanting actual change. Its like something happens when youre 50-60 and you get scared people arent you to the point you pretend theyre you and would make choices based on you. But just like in most elections the last 50 years the old haggards happy with the slow deterioration of our country are demonising younger generations asking for change and youve seen the results and youre going to see the results again. Young people are not going to vote centrist because they dont share the idea that "centrism" is perfection they see it as cowardly ideas taking us nowhere. "Lets just have a non descript centrist party and everyone will vote for it" has been the idea of our middle class forever and its always been about this egotistical desire not to pay taxes

Sadly, those younger generations are in general leaning more to the left,... I put that almost entirely down to the fact that they haven't, as adults at least, lived through the cold war era, seen the brutal realities of socialist/communist regimes,... seen the reality of what the proper cancel cultures of Marxism does to a society.

These generations are going to have to get real experience of these ideologies, then they will move to a more palatable centrist position.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Would you abolish Private health care too?

I do think that one is trickier, tbh.

Obviously all critical care and emergency care should be freely available to all - and in such cases there should be no entitlement to better treatment or better healthcare outcomes based on ability to pay.

BUT - I don't have a problem with people who wish to spend their own money for non-critical stuff - cosmetic procedures, sports physiotherapy, etc. I'd be a hypocrite if I said otherwise - I've used company healthcare provision in the recent past for treatment of a non urgent joint injury, that was affecting my cricket...

 

[Exilegull]

Sadly, those younger generations are in general leaning more to the left,... I put that almost entirely down to the fact that they haven't, as adults at least, lived through the cold war era, seen the brutal realities of socialist/communist regimes,... seen the reality of what the proper cancel cultures of Marxism does to a society.

These generations are going to have to get real experience of these ideologies, then they will move to a more palatable centrist position.

You mean they didnt buy the propaganda about good working conditions, public funded well fare and fairer resource allocation leading straight to Gulag? Different kinds of socialism worked in nearly every country but we have never done it here because the richest keep telling us that all left politics leads to some sort of Stalinism which is just as dumb as saying right wing politics automatically leads to fascism