[Politics] Owen Jones

[Pevenseagull]

Apart from the 3 Blair elections, since 1945, Labour have managed a grand total of 1 General Election victory with a majority of more than 5.

I'm pretty much where @hans kraay fan club is on all of this.

 

[heathgate]

TBF one of the main points of the video is that Labour have promised to continue with the same failed austerity as the Tories and when this continues to fail it'll open the door to the far right.

Taking erstwhile Labour voters with him, I am guessing not a landslide of numbers, but probably a comparable number to those leaving the Conservative party for Reform etc.

 

[HyperTony]

Chavs is a brilliant book. I read it once on the way to an away match.

Owen Jones seems so angry all the time though. But I don't get the hate. But that's the internet really. All froth.

I've read The Establishment and it's very good. It reinforced already held beliefs about how corrupt institutions and government are.
His complaints about broken pledges probably expose how naive he is about how GE's are won compared to leadership elections. No party would have the balls to say they are going to re-nationalise any infrastructure, even if it was clearly the only possible alternative to the current downward spiral of all public services. It appears, via some skim reading of conference speeches, they maybe heading in the same direction the Blair govt did, using PFI type mechanisms to fund the public infrastructure investment. Any left leaning member is going to have the same sort of hissy fit as Owen.
Maybe through the gradual failure of each public service company via incremental removal of government funding, there is a path to nationalisation. I just don't see this collection of faceless corporate lapdogs wanting that, it won't give them the path to non-exec directorships to keep their duck houses ship shape.

 

[London Irish]

And no-one was suggesting he has a role in public life. Owen Jones is a modern capitalist brand, I watch his "content" as a social media influencer/commentator extensively.

He is terrible when challenged on linear TV as a guest and has walked out on interviews, but is much better (obviously) when in control of his own narrative and editing.

That's how you build a brand. Owen has to have the last word and knows it.

His most interest/weird interviews are one with the likes of Peter Hitchens and others on the right. Neither one is competing with each other, each has their say and there is an odd mutual respect. It's like watching Nike sitting down with Apple. With Hitchens it's almost a love-in.

Where Owen falls down is with his discussion with the Left, because Owen is competing for the same space.

If Owen genuinely wanted to change this country he would be committed to bringing down the current administration and fighting from "within" to move a new Labour Government closer to his political perspective.

But Owen has other priorities. I don't for one minute think it's about money, but Owen Jones the brand is paramount.

I respect your politics, probably agree with 90% of them but the likes of Owen Jones actively damage them in the pursuit of self promotion.

I think it's really important try to separate politics from personal behaviour. Livingstone was the best London Mayor I've ever had, but he really had to be booted out at end,

He walked out when facing homophobia from very rightwing troll Julia Hartley-Brewer. It's so telling about your politics that you would take her side in this, not his.

 

[London Irish]

Did some idiot I have on ignore actually demand an answer to this dumb question . . . again.

Just tell them to f*** off. Its so much more final

How many times is this bloke going to say he has me on ignore. The function doesn't seem to be working, it seems, but I don't think it does for the perpetually enraged

 

[London Irish]

But he’s been all over the place through his political career. No one knows what he’s about. Remember the platform he stood on to be elected as leader? He’s renounced nearly all of it. And despite his promise to embrace all sides of the party, he’s actually been pretty ruthless in removing or silencing those on the left in the party. I’m not saying I don’t understand why he’s done this. But he’s an extremely unreliable character IMO.

Not at all - there is a clear thread of consistency, he is a liar and actually this was known before he stood for the leadership because of the way he treated people in his constituency Labour party. Five years on, the evidence is now overwhelming.

So why didn't he want to tell the truth about what his Thatcherite version of Labour will do in power? Because he knows it will be massively unpopular with Labour voters to tell them next to nothing is going to change

 

[London Irish]

With respect you’ve no idea at all what I want, or how big ‘my vision’ is. You’ve been here on this site for 5 minutes, and I dare say if you had been more familiar with my (long and dull) posting history, you’d have understood that my background ideology is very much to the left of Starmer and co.

I’d advocate the re-nationalisation of utilities and transport networks, higher taxation and social care budgets, complete reform of the asylum system, immediate commencement of exploratory talks to rejoin the single market, abolishment of private schools, abolishment of faith schools, massive investment in public transport infrastructure, inflation-linked pay increases for front line teaching and medical staff, the banning of foreign ownership of UK print media, immediate striking from the books of the new laws on protesting, and a scrapping of 100% of tuition fees for students taking degrees in teaching, medicine and other skills shortfalls (linked to a commitment to a minimum period of public service after graduation).

But grandstanding for clicks, and seeking to undermine the Labour party in the run up to a FPTP election, is absolutely not the way to further that wish list. Get elected, THEN try to steer the country in the right direction. Get things moving forward in a positive manner and seek to engage the public to back some of the more radical possibilities. IMO like.

But the Labour Right simply don't believe in any of that by choice and ideology, not because they are being held back by some magical forces. If you went to a Labour selection candidate interview panel, you would not get near a shortlist if you advocated that programme. They don't want these ideas and are ruthlessly stopping anyone from becoming a party representative or MP if anyone puts their head over the parapet saying they do. The journey to your radical possibilities is blocked by Labour

 

[hans kraay fan club]

But the Labour Right simply don't believe in any of that by choice and ideology, not because they are being held back by some magical forces. If you went to a Labour selection candidate interview panel, you would not get near a shortlist if you advocated that programme. They don't want these ideas and are ruthlessly stopping anyone from becoming a party representative or MP if anyone puts their head over the parapet saying they do. The journey to your radical possibilities is blocked by Labour

So what is your suggestion? Give the Tories five more years, through all spoiling our ballot papers, or voting for fringe candidates?

The choice facing the electorate could not be clearer. The incumbent government are doing irreparable harm to the country - and doing so quite deliberately. The first imperative has to be to remove them first. Only then can you start to worry about the next steps.

 

[Eeyore]

He walked out when facing homophobia from very rightwing troll Julia Hartley-Brewer. It's so telling about your politics that you would take her side in this, not his.

I've seen the interview before. He wasn't facing homophobia that day, if anything it was the presenter who seemed to seemed to not get it. He shouldn't have walked out. It all got a bit silly when they were trying to discuss an important subject.

 

[Weststander]

Taking erstwhile Labour voters with him, I am guessing not a landslide of numbers, but probably a comparable number to those leaving the Conservative party for Reform etc.

Reform have a imho surprising large following just now and growing, in the many millions going by polling samples.

I’d be very surprised if this cabal have anything like that effect.

Online they’re targeting Wes Streeting MP in Ilford North at the next GE. He comes across as a decent human being, an ideal future Health Secretary.

 

[jcdenton08]

But the Labour Right simply don't believe in any of that by choice and ideology, not because they are being held back by some magical forces. If you went to a Labour selection candidate interview panel, you would not get near a shortlist if you advocated that programme. They don't want these ideas and are ruthlessly stopping anyone from becoming a party representative or MP if anyone puts their head over the parapet saying they do. The journey to your radical possibilities is blocked by Labour

You’ll be the first to admit though, you have no expectations of government with your political stance.

Surely the aim is to be in government and make change to the status quo, not be perpetually in opposition furious how the rest of the electorate (and even your own party) doesn’t agree with your political stance of expecting a “pure socialist” government.

Really what your stance is, is “apolitical cynic”, which is a perfectly valid opinion. To be a true Labour supporter is recognising that they only get into government when they are in the centre.

Otherwise, I would suggest, simply supporting a party much further to the left and forgetting about Labour entirely.

 

[Exilegull]

With respect you’ve no idea at all what I want, or how big ‘my vision’ is. You’ve been here on this site for 5 minutes, and I dare say if you had been more familiar with my (long and dull) posting history, you’d have understood that my background ideology is very much to the left of Starmer and co.

I’d advocate the re-nationalisation of utilities and transport networks, higher taxation and social care budgets, complete reform of the asylum system, immediate commencement of exploratory talks to rejoin the single market, abolishment of private schools, abolishment of faith schools, massive investment in public transport infrastructure, inflation-linked pay increases for front line teaching and medical staff, the banning of foreign ownership of UK print media, immediate striking from the books of the new laws on protesting, and a scrapping of 100% of tuition fees for students taking degrees in teaching, medicine and other skills shortfalls (linked to a commitment to a minimum period of public service after graduation).

But grandstanding for clicks, and seeking to undermine the Labour party in the run up to a FPTP election, is absolutely not the way to further that wish list. Get elected, THEN try to steer the country in the right direction. Get things moving forward in a positive manner and seek to engage the public to back some of the more radical possibilities. IMO like.

Grandstanding for clicks is it any different from what media normally do? This guy getting 5k clicks or The Sun getting 5k clicks is it all that differenent? No, but The Sun has a say in how things turn out. I think people. No doubt are you to the left of those from lurking here but when is that supposed to turn into real politics? Yes I hear the "get em in and then change" but what are the evidence this may happen

 

[Baldseagull]

I always believed that this country will never vote for a massive change, only moving the needle a bit left or right is electable. But then Brexit, and it seems revolutionary policies can be popular, as long as you promise everyone they can have everything as a result, despite the obvious incompatibility with reality.
Starmer is ok, he is just trying not to frighten the horses currently, we have to wait and see what will be in the manifesto to see where he is intending to take us. I suspect I will be disappointed, but it will have to be awful for Labour not to get my vote in this constituency.

 

[aolstudios]

Another...

 

[cjd]

With respect you’ve no idea at all what I want, or how big ‘my vision’ is. You’ve been here on this site for 5 minutes, and I dare say if you had been more familiar with my (long and dull) posting history, you’d have understood that my background ideology is very much to the left of Starmer and co.

I’d advocate the re-nationalisation of utilities and transport networks, higher taxation and social care budgets, complete reform of the asylum system, immediate commencement of exploratory talks to rejoin the single market, abolishment of private schools, abolishment of faith schools, massive investment in public transport infrastructure, inflation-linked pay increases for front line teaching and medical staff, the banning of foreign ownership of UK print media, immediate striking from the books of the new laws on protesting, and a scrapping of 100% of tuition fees for students taking degrees in teaching, medicine and other skills shortfalls (linked to a commitment to a minimum period of public service after graduation).

But grandstanding for clicks, and seeking to undermine the Labour party in the run up to a FPTP election, is absolutely not the way to further that wish list. Get elected, THEN try to steer the country in the right direction. Get things moving forward in a positive manner and seek to engage the public to back some of the more radical possibilities. IMO like.

Quite an impressive list there.

Are they things you have costed properly and ways of paying for them too...?

 

[Weststander]

Quite an impressive list there.

Are they things you have costed properly and ways of paying for them too...?

By the issue of Virtue Bonds

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Aside from the green stuff what else has he renounced?

If you can be bothered ploughing through this stuff you'll get a good idea. Some changesd may well have been foisted on him by changes to the economy but others do seem like a nervousness about appearing too radical.

All of Keir Starmer’s screeching U-turns and abandoned policy pledges

Keir Starmer has abandoned some of his key promises. We've broken them down, in the wake of his two-child benefit limit comments.

www.bigissue.com

Keir Starmer removes leadership election pledges from website

PLEDGES made by Labour Party leader Keir Starmer during the 2020 leadership election have been removed from his website.

www.thenational.scot

 

[Randy McNob]

The current climate is populism is easy to sell, send in a clown like bojo who;l just tell you what you want to hear versus a candidate of integrity who will tell you uncomfortable truths but has honest and genuine intentions, and with the power of the media their message is misrepresented and crushed

when will we ever get to a point here we;ve had enough of this crap?

Jones is honest and speaks truth to power, if there were more like him this country would be in a much better place

 

[Colonel Mustard]

The current climate is populism is easy to sell, send in a clown like bojo who;l just tell you what you want to hear versus a candidate of integrity who will tell you uncomfortable truths but has honest and genuine intentions, and with the power of the media their message is misrepresented and crushed

when will we ever get to a point here we;ve had enough of this crap?

Jones is honest and speaks truth to power, if there were more like him this country would be in a much better place

Very few things in politics are objective 'truths', whether uncomfortable or not. It took me several decades of living to gradually realise this. Politically speaking, we arrive where we are via a countless mass of experiences, some trivial, some profound. Each one of us owns a unique permutation of experience and therefore a unique set of values and perspectives.

Owen Jones, in his article, describes his family's long heritage in socialism, trade unionism, and activism. While other 15 year old kids were getting PlayStations and mountain bikes, Owen's mother buys him Labour Party membership for his birthday. He's a northerner, and gay. All of these things combined means his priorities and truths will be different from mine. No more valid, no less valid.

Populism takes many forms, but it’s essentially the idea that one represents 'real people', the majority, in their struggle against society's elites. This may well describe Boris Johnson but it certainly describes Owen Jones too.

The "power of the media" likewise cuts both ways, and it's galling to hear fans of a media darling like Owen, with his newspaper columns, YouTube channels, and frequent TV appearances, complain about it.

So please, less of the political self pity. Widen your lens, try to glimpse the world through the eyes of others, whose experience is different from yours. Instead of disparaging others for not sharing Owen’s "honest and genuine intentions", try to understand that your political opponents can also have honest and genuine intentions, even if they’re focused elsewhere.

So many people see politics in big bold primary colours, and populated with cartoonish goodies (Us - hooray!) and baddies (Them - boooo!) To use your own earnest words, "When will we ever get to a point where we've had enough of this crap?"

 

[aolstudios]

Very few things in politics are objective 'truths', whether uncomfortable or not. It took me several decades of living to gradually realise this. Politically speaking, we arrive where we are via a countless mass of experiences, some trivial, some profound. Each one of us owns a unique permutation of experience and therefore a unique set of values and perspectives.

Owen Jones, in his article, describes his family's long heritage in socialism, trade unionism, and activism. While other 15 year old kids were getting PlayStations and mountain bikes, Owen's mother buys him Labour Party membership for his birthday. He's a northerner, and gay. All of these things combined means his priorities and truths will be different from mine. No more valid, no less valid.

Populism takes many forms, but it’s essentially the idea that one represents 'real people', the majority, in their struggle against society's elites. This may well describe Boris Johnson but it certainly describes Owen Jones too.

The "power of the media" likewise cuts both ways, and it's galling to hear fans of a media darling like Owen, with his newspaper columns, YouTube channels, and frequent TV appearances, complain about it.

So please, less of the political self pity. Widen your lens, try to glimpse the world through the eyes of others, whose experience is different from yours. Instead of disparaging others for not sharing Owen’s "honest and genuine intentions", try to understand that your political opponents can also have honest and genuine intentions, even if they’re focused elsewhere.

So many people see politics in big bold primary colours, and populated with cartoonish goodies (Us - hooray!) and baddies (Them - boooo!) To use your own earnest words, "When will we ever get to a point where we've had enough of this crap?"

Well, exactly.
OJ is no more fundamentally 'honest' than Johnson. & his own populism, aimed precisely at his chosen audience is just as coldly cynical. 'Honest' politics, if there is such a thing, has grey areas. Quite deliberately ignored by both