LE19
New member
She should've dived in the bath, that's what they do in films. That's one thing in his favour actually, surely if you're in fear of getting shot you don't stand in front of the bloody door
Even if he'd "screamed" at the "intruder"?
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Oscar Pistorius allegedly kills his girlfriend - reports
- Thread starter Wozza
- Start date
Even if he'd "screamed" at the "intruder"?
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
On the evidence so far he's either guilty as sin, or just really really stupid.
I guess we'll find out more in due course when the proper evidence is prestented. One thing that interests me is that he says he fired the shots without his legs on. The prosecution says he put his legs on and fired the shots. That could be a massive point on which the case hinges, as I rekon most of us could prove that one way or another with a tape measure, if we had access to the crime scene
She should've dived in the bath, that's what they do in films. That's one thing in his favour actually, surely if you're in fear of getting shot you don't stand in front of the bloody door
We don't really know where she was, other than he found her slumped over the toilet (she may have been sitting on it for all we know). And it is not a big room so probably does not have a bath in it - just a toilet and shower probably. We also don't know how many shots were fired in total cos if all 4 hit her, he is a bloody good shot considering he was firing blind.
The legs thing is being challenged and the prosecution are going to answer tomorrow where they got that from. But as he says he got up to close a door without his legs on, we can assume that he is pretty mobile without them - I suspect that the prosecution assumed that he had to have his legs on to move around easily.
He isn't disputing that he shot her, just that he did not know it was her in the bathroom. Could be an interesting trial as the most crucial information, that he shot her, is not in dispute. I dunno how he can convince the Judge that he did not know it was her - seems entirely implausible. But we will see.
Pogue Mahone
Well-known member
- Apr 30, 2011
- 10,949
This is a 'bathroom' in the version of English used outside of the UK. If, as reported, the room was 1.4m square, then that's small even by the standards of a small loo. No room for anything but a toilet. South Africans may call it a bathroom, we'd call it the loo.
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
You're right. 1.4m x 1.4m is tiny. Must be just a loo. I have assumed it was the on-suite bathroom but cannot be.
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
Bigger media circus this morning - they are setting up a feed into another court so that more journo's etc can attend.
The toilet is in the bathroom, but has a separate door. OP's affidavit statement:
Paralympian Oscar Pistorius was emotional when his affidavit on how he shot his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp was read to the Pretoria Magistrate's Court on Tuesday.
"I deny the aforesaid [murder] allegation in the strongest terms," Pistorius said in the 10-page statement, which was read to the court by his advocate Barry Roux.
Pistorius' version of events was being presented in an application for bail on the same day that Steenkamp's funeral service was being held in Port Elizabeth, about 1100km away.
Pistorius was arrested on Thursday morning after Steenkamp was shot dead at his home in Silver Woods country estate, in Pretoria. He was charged with murder on Friday.
The State intends arguing that the murder was pre-meditated.
With his brother Carl supporting him, the court heard: "I fail to understand how I could be charged with murder, let alone premeditated murder, as I had no intention to kill my girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp."
In the affidavit, Pistorius said he would put factors before the court to show that it was in the interests of justice to permit his release on bail, and that the State would not be able to present any "objective facts" that he committed a "planned or premeditated murder".
"On 13 February, Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends," Pistorius said in the affidavit.
"Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home.
"I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home.
"By about 10pm on 13 February 2013, we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television.
"My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way.
"She had given me a present for Valentine's Day, but asked me only to open it the next day."
Pistorius said that after Steenkamp finished her yoga exercises, she got into bed and they both fell asleep.
"I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglary before," he said in the statement.
"For that reason, I kept my firearm, a 9mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.
"During the early hours of 14 February, 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and close the sliding door, the blinds and the curtains.
"I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom. I felt a sense of terror rushing over me.
"There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside.
"Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.
"I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on. I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed.
"On my way to the bathroom, I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.
"It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed. I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom.
"I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
"It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet.
"I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window," he said.
"As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself.
"I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger.
"I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.
"I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police," he said.
"She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance.
"Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
"When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed.
"That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet.
"I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door, exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
"I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open.
"I think I must then have turned on the lights.
"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door.
"Reeva was slumped over but alive.
"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom.
"I phoned Johan Stander ["Stander"] who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help," said Pistorius.
"I went downstairs to open the front door. I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital.
"I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down, Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived.
"Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.
"I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva.
"With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out onto the balcony to bring the fan in.
"I cannot bear to think of the suffering I have caused her and her family, knowing how much she was loved.
"I also know that the events of that tragic night were as I have described them and that in due course I have no doubt the police and expert investigators will bear this out," said Pistorius.
- - - Updated - - -
Bigger media circus this morning - they are setting up a feed into another court so that more journo's etc can attend.
The toilet is in the bathroom, but has a separate door. OP's affidavit statement:
Paralympian Oscar Pistorius was emotional when his affidavit on how he shot his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp was read to the Pretoria Magistrate's Court on Tuesday.
"I deny the aforesaid [murder] allegation in the strongest terms," Pistorius said in the 10-page statement, which was read to the court by his advocate Barry Roux.
Pistorius' version of events was being presented in an application for bail on the same day that Steenkamp's funeral service was being held in Port Elizabeth, about 1100km away.
Pistorius was arrested on Thursday morning after Steenkamp was shot dead at his home in Silver Woods country estate, in Pretoria. He was charged with murder on Friday.
The State intends arguing that the murder was pre-meditated.
With his brother Carl supporting him, the court heard: "I fail to understand how I could be charged with murder, let alone premeditated murder, as I had no intention to kill my girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp."
In the affidavit, Pistorius said he would put factors before the court to show that it was in the interests of justice to permit his release on bail, and that the State would not be able to present any "objective facts" that he committed a "planned or premeditated murder".
"On 13 February, Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends," Pistorius said in the affidavit.
"Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home.
"I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home.
"By about 10pm on 13 February 2013, we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television.
"My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way.
"She had given me a present for Valentine's Day, but asked me only to open it the next day."
Pistorius said that after Steenkamp finished her yoga exercises, she got into bed and they both fell asleep.
"I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglary before," he said in the statement.
"For that reason, I kept my firearm, a 9mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.
"During the early hours of 14 February, 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and close the sliding door, the blinds and the curtains.
"I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom. I felt a sense of terror rushing over me.
"There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside.
"Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.
"I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on. I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed.
"On my way to the bathroom, I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.
"It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed. I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom.
"I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
"It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet.
"I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window," he said.
"As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself.
"I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger.
"I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.
"I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police," he said.
"She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance.
"Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
"When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed.
"That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet.
"I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door, exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
"I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open.
"I think I must then have turned on the lights.
"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door.
"Reeva was slumped over but alive.
"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom.
"I phoned Johan Stander ["Stander"] who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help," said Pistorius.
"I went downstairs to open the front door. I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital.
"I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down, Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived.
"Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.
"I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva.
"With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out onto the balcony to bring the fan in.
"I cannot bear to think of the suffering I have caused her and her family, knowing how much she was loved.
"I also know that the events of that tragic night were as I have described them and that in due course I have no doubt the police and expert investigators will bear this out," said Pistorius.
The toilet is in the bathroom, but has a separate door. OP's affidavit statement:
Paralympian Oscar Pistorius was emotional when his affidavit on how he shot his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp was read to the Pretoria Magistrate's Court on Tuesday.
"I deny the aforesaid [murder] allegation in the strongest terms," Pistorius said in the 10-page statement, which was read to the court by his advocate Barry Roux.
Pistorius' version of events was being presented in an application for bail on the same day that Steenkamp's funeral service was being held in Port Elizabeth, about 1100km away.
Pistorius was arrested on Thursday morning after Steenkamp was shot dead at his home in Silver Woods country estate, in Pretoria. He was charged with murder on Friday.
The State intends arguing that the murder was pre-meditated.
With his brother Carl supporting him, the court heard: "I fail to understand how I could be charged with murder, let alone premeditated murder, as I had no intention to kill my girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp."
In the affidavit, Pistorius said he would put factors before the court to show that it was in the interests of justice to permit his release on bail, and that the State would not be able to present any "objective facts" that he committed a "planned or premeditated murder".
"On 13 February, Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends," Pistorius said in the affidavit.
"Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home.
"I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home.
"By about 10pm on 13 February 2013, we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television.
"My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way.
"She had given me a present for Valentine's Day, but asked me only to open it the next day."
Pistorius said that after Steenkamp finished her yoga exercises, she got into bed and they both fell asleep.
"I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglary before," he said in the statement.
"For that reason, I kept my firearm, a 9mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.
"During the early hours of 14 February, 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and close the sliding door, the blinds and the curtains.
"I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom. I felt a sense of terror rushing over me.
"There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside.
"Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.
"I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on. I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed.
"On my way to the bathroom, I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.
"It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed. I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom.
"I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
"It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet.
"I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window," he said.
"As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself.
"I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger.
"I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.
"I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police," he said.
"She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance.
"Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
"When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed.
"That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet.
"I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door, exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
"I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open.
"I think I must then have turned on the lights.
"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door.
"Reeva was slumped over but alive.
"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom.
"I phoned Johan Stander ["Stander"] who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help," said Pistorius.
"I went downstairs to open the front door. I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital.
"I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down, Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived.
"Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.
"I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva.
"With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out onto the balcony to bring the fan in.
"I cannot bear to think of the suffering I have caused her and her family, knowing how much she was loved.
"I also know that the events of that tragic night were as I have described them and that in due course I have no doubt the police and expert investigators will bear this out," said Pistorius.
- - - Updated - - -
Bigger media circus this morning - they are setting up a feed into another court so that more journo's etc can attend.
The toilet is in the bathroom, but has a separate door. OP's affidavit statement:
Paralympian Oscar Pistorius was emotional when his affidavit on how he shot his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp was read to the Pretoria Magistrate's Court on Tuesday.
"I deny the aforesaid [murder] allegation in the strongest terms," Pistorius said in the 10-page statement, which was read to the court by his advocate Barry Roux.
Pistorius' version of events was being presented in an application for bail on the same day that Steenkamp's funeral service was being held in Port Elizabeth, about 1100km away.
Pistorius was arrested on Thursday morning after Steenkamp was shot dead at his home in Silver Woods country estate, in Pretoria. He was charged with murder on Friday.
The State intends arguing that the murder was pre-meditated.
With his brother Carl supporting him, the court heard: "I fail to understand how I could be charged with murder, let alone premeditated murder, as I had no intention to kill my girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp."
In the affidavit, Pistorius said he would put factors before the court to show that it was in the interests of justice to permit his release on bail, and that the State would not be able to present any "objective facts" that he committed a "planned or premeditated murder".
"On 13 February, Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends," Pistorius said in the affidavit.
"Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home.
"I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home.
"By about 10pm on 13 February 2013, we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television.
"My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way.
"She had given me a present for Valentine's Day, but asked me only to open it the next day."
Pistorius said that after Steenkamp finished her yoga exercises, she got into bed and they both fell asleep.
"I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglary before," he said in the statement.
"For that reason, I kept my firearm, a 9mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.
"During the early hours of 14 February, 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and close the sliding door, the blinds and the curtains.
"I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom. I felt a sense of terror rushing over me.
"There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside.
"Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.
"I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on. I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed.
"On my way to the bathroom, I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.
"It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed. I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom.
"I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
"It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet.
"I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window," he said.
"As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself.
"I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger.
"I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.
"I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police," he said.
"She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance.
"Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
"When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed.
"That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet.
"I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door, exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
"I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open.
"I think I must then have turned on the lights.
"I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door.
"Reeva was slumped over but alive.
"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom.
"I phoned Johan Stander ["Stander"] who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help," said Pistorius.
"I went downstairs to open the front door. I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital.
"I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down, Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived.
"Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.
"I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva.
"With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out onto the balcony to bring the fan in.
"I cannot bear to think of the suffering I have caused her and her family, knowing how much she was loved.
"I also know that the events of that tragic night were as I have described them and that in due course I have no doubt the police and expert investigators will bear this out," said Pistorius.
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
We are off again:
Prosecutor:
will submit a witness statement of someone hearing non-stop fighting between 2am - 3am that morning.
Premeditation. "Deliberate aiming of shots at toilet from about 1.5 metres."
reveal that #ReevaSteenkamp was shot on right side of her body. He says this is part of case that murder was premeditated.
Investigating officer Botha:
says he arrived at house at 0415 and found Reeva lying already dead on ground floor
"She was already declared dead" by medics. "She had on white shorts and black vest. She was covered in towels."
The accused could be a flight risk. It's a serious crime, a serious matter." If guilty, he could get 15 years to life.
Botha while on scene the lawyer and brother were there. We asked to have the safes open. There was a specific safe in the kitchen but no key, so they brought a locksmith to open it.
Lawyer and brother came. They said they were looking for documents and a specific memory stick with details of offshore accounts.
says OP has offshore accounts and house in Italy and 'we don't have extradition' with all countries - We don't want another Dewani matter
on the scene he said he thought it was a burglar, but to explanation. Not even in his warning statement
I've taken statements from neighbours, witnesses and I attended the post mortem. Numerous experts on scene. Three entrance wounds: right side of head (ear), right elbow (broke arm), hip.
more charges will be added - posession of unlicenced ammunition. We found .38 Special rounds.
if you face the bed, the room entrance is behind you, bathorom entrance to the left.
a passage with cupboards through it lead to the bathroom. You have to turn right to get into bathroom
I found parts of the toilet door on the floor. I found cartridges, firearm on the mat.
standing in doorway, the shower and toilet are to the right. The toilet is 1.4 by 1.14 metres
four shots were fired through the door, four cartridges found. He used a cricket bat to break door.
two cellphones were found in the bathroom. I collected them and two more Blackberries
the two iPhones were not used that morning. The Blackberries hadn't been used in months. the iPhones weren't used to call the police or paramedics
the shots were aimed at the toilet bowl. The toilet is in and to the left. (someone else tweets that shots were aimed at the basin,not directly into the toilet).
Nel asks Botha if shots were fired directly at toilet basin and he agrees. "If you fire straight at the door, you miss the toilet."
to obtain the trajectory which created the holes, you'd have to be 1.5m from the door.
we think shooter would have to walked into bathroom, faced the wall where window was in and fired straight at door.
They are going to break now so that lawyers can set up a projector, which will show the plans of the house as per Magistrates instructions.
Prosecutor:
will submit a witness statement of someone hearing non-stop fighting between 2am - 3am that morning.
Premeditation. "Deliberate aiming of shots at toilet from about 1.5 metres."
reveal that #ReevaSteenkamp was shot on right side of her body. He says this is part of case that murder was premeditated.
Investigating officer Botha:
says he arrived at house at 0415 and found Reeva lying already dead on ground floor
"She was already declared dead" by medics. "She had on white shorts and black vest. She was covered in towels."
The accused could be a flight risk. It's a serious crime, a serious matter." If guilty, he could get 15 years to life.
Botha while on scene the lawyer and brother were there. We asked to have the safes open. There was a specific safe in the kitchen but no key, so they brought a locksmith to open it.
Lawyer and brother came. They said they were looking for documents and a specific memory stick with details of offshore accounts.
says OP has offshore accounts and house in Italy and 'we don't have extradition' with all countries - We don't want another Dewani matter
on the scene he said he thought it was a burglar, but to explanation. Not even in his warning statement
I've taken statements from neighbours, witnesses and I attended the post mortem. Numerous experts on scene. Three entrance wounds: right side of head (ear), right elbow (broke arm), hip.
more charges will be added - posession of unlicenced ammunition. We found .38 Special rounds.
if you face the bed, the room entrance is behind you, bathorom entrance to the left.
a passage with cupboards through it lead to the bathroom. You have to turn right to get into bathroom
I found parts of the toilet door on the floor. I found cartridges, firearm on the mat.
standing in doorway, the shower and toilet are to the right. The toilet is 1.4 by 1.14 metres
four shots were fired through the door, four cartridges found. He used a cricket bat to break door.
two cellphones were found in the bathroom. I collected them and two more Blackberries
the two iPhones were not used that morning. The Blackberries hadn't been used in months. the iPhones weren't used to call the police or paramedics
the shots were aimed at the toilet bowl. The toilet is in and to the left. (someone else tweets that shots were aimed at the basin,not directly into the toilet).
Nel asks Botha if shots were fired directly at toilet basin and he agrees. "If you fire straight at the door, you miss the toilet."
to obtain the trajectory which created the holes, you'd have to be 1.5m from the door.
we think shooter would have to walked into bathroom, faced the wall where window was in and fired straight at door.
They are going to break now so that lawyers can set up a projector, which will show the plans of the house as per Magistrates instructions.
Bold Seagull
strong and stable with me, or...
This is all actually just a Tom Sharpe novel isn't it!?
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
Back again:
Prosecutor:: The accused's version is he went to the bathroom without his prostheses on and he fired. Check the angle, bullets fired up or down?
Botha:
it appears the trajectory was down - from top down. (Angle from door to toilet seat)
the bullets went through the top part of the door.
the phones and firearm were found on the carpet close to the shower door (next to toilet)
once in the bathroom toilet there's no way out. The window is small. If you make it through you'll fall.
the cricket bat was found in front of the first wash basin.
ballistic experts are still dealing with question or projectiles in bathroom, angle of shots
found two boxes of testosterone and needles and injections in bedroom (Botha initially said Steroids, but then changed this to Testosterone)
We haven't been to able to investigate off-shore accounts "other than that memory stick that was spoke about".
Pistorius claimed he had been a victim of burglary and violent crime, but Botha says he never made a complaint to the police.
we have info that #OscaPistorius accidentally shot gun in restaurant in January. He asked friend to take the rap.
Botha: there was an incident at Kyalami where Oscar threatened to assault a man over a woman. Devaris intervened and convinced the complainant to back off.
Pistorius told the person "we'll f*** you up". The person was so scared he sought legal action.
Nel on the issue of the firearm under bed because of fear of crime. But he went to bed with door open?
I found a holster for the firearm on the same side I found the overnight bag and slippers. Botha suggests #OscarPistorius may have taken his gun from side of bed where Reeva had been sleeping
If I had heard a noise, as Pistorius claims, "I would have tried to find where my girlfriend was".
#police contest #pistorius assertion there were ladders close to bathroom offering access through unbarred window. Say further away
Botha: it's highly unlikely he was trying to protect himself or Reeva.
we have a witness statement saying she heard what sounded like fighting, loud talking from 2am to 3am.
then the witness heard gunshots
Pistorius said it was dark, but Botha claims a witness heard gunshots, saw the lights on, heard "a female screaming" and then more shots.
"No way" it was self-defence. "I believe he knew she was in the bathroom and he fired four shots and killed her."
Botha: I do not believe the story he was defending himself and protecting his girlfriend.
- - - Updated - - -
Botha now to be cross-examined by defence team
Prosecutor:: The accused's version is he went to the bathroom without his prostheses on and he fired. Check the angle, bullets fired up or down?
Botha:
it appears the trajectory was down - from top down. (Angle from door to toilet seat)
the bullets went through the top part of the door.
the phones and firearm were found on the carpet close to the shower door (next to toilet)
once in the bathroom toilet there's no way out. The window is small. If you make it through you'll fall.
the cricket bat was found in front of the first wash basin.
ballistic experts are still dealing with question or projectiles in bathroom, angle of shots
found two boxes of testosterone and needles and injections in bedroom (Botha initially said Steroids, but then changed this to Testosterone)
We haven't been to able to investigate off-shore accounts "other than that memory stick that was spoke about".
Pistorius claimed he had been a victim of burglary and violent crime, but Botha says he never made a complaint to the police.
we have info that #OscaPistorius accidentally shot gun in restaurant in January. He asked friend to take the rap.
Botha: there was an incident at Kyalami where Oscar threatened to assault a man over a woman. Devaris intervened and convinced the complainant to back off.
Pistorius told the person "we'll f*** you up". The person was so scared he sought legal action.
Nel on the issue of the firearm under bed because of fear of crime. But he went to bed with door open?
I found a holster for the firearm on the same side I found the overnight bag and slippers. Botha suggests #OscarPistorius may have taken his gun from side of bed where Reeva had been sleeping
If I had heard a noise, as Pistorius claims, "I would have tried to find where my girlfriend was".
#police contest #pistorius assertion there were ladders close to bathroom offering access through unbarred window. Say further away
Botha: it's highly unlikely he was trying to protect himself or Reeva.
we have a witness statement saying she heard what sounded like fighting, loud talking from 2am to 3am.
then the witness heard gunshots
Pistorius said it was dark, but Botha claims a witness heard gunshots, saw the lights on, heard "a female screaming" and then more shots.
"No way" it was self-defence. "I believe he knew she was in the bathroom and he fired four shots and killed her."
Botha: I do not believe the story he was defending himself and protecting his girlfriend.
- - - Updated - - -
Botha now to be cross-examined by defence team
The Wizard
Well-known member
- Jul 2, 2009
- 18,401
Certainly an interesting trial, think the prosecutors have this sewn up on current known evidence and witness statements. Defence lawyers need to find something to back up his story or hes going down for a long time
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 28,273
Call me strange if you want but, if I was Oscar in his version of what happened I would have got my gun, took the safety off and found a nice position behind a doorway, assumed a comfortable position and lined the gun up on the bathroom door. then I would have said something like " Who is in the Bathroom ? come out, I am armed " ( Insert pun here ). When my girlfriend answered I'd put the gun away quickly and say " only joking ".
it really does not look good.
it really does not look good.
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
This is not even the trial! This is just a bail hearing!
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
Defence have been having a good go:
Roux (Defence) having a go - Botha confirms Oscar said on scene about issue of burglar.
Roux how did you know the distance travelled? I have some experience with forensics.
Botha says one bullet cartridge found outside bathroom, three others inside
Roux have you tested the visibility in the bedroom at night with the curtains closed? We have, it's pitch dark.
Witness heard "two to three" shots, saw lights on, then 17 minutes later heard "two to three" more shots.
Botha concedes that witness who heard 3 shots - then woman screaming - then 3 shots got number of shots wrong.
Roux: Did witness say she heard it was Pistorius or Steenkamp talking between 2 and 3am? Botha: She did not. It sounded like an argument.
The witness's house is about 600-odd metres away from Pistorius. Gasp from Pistorius family. Botha: "She said it under oath."
Roux this testosterone, lets put it in context - whats the name of the medication? Botha can't say.
Defence says that substance was not steroids, not banned substance, but a herbal remedy. presented in court as used testosterone.
Roux instead of verifying infomation, you introduce untested evidence. It would have been easy to get some idea of what it was instead of simply saying it's "used testosterone".
Roux confirms substance found is herbal remedy called Testoconpasupium Coenzyme - legal and apparently used by athletes.
Botha admits to magistrate that he "didn't read the whole name" when claiming testosterone found. Botha on ropes, floundering.
Botha starts getting aggressive. Barely 20 minutes into cross exam and he's unravelling. Horribly.
#defense #pistorius says PM showed steenkamp's bladder empty when died, consistent with pistorius account she got up to go to toilet
Roux usually at 3am you wouldn't find an empty bladder. Botha agrees.
Botha concedes that if, on Oscar's version, Reeva went to bathroom, he would've heard noises.
Roux for Defence ripping into police. Said they put worst possible twist on everything
Defence says Reeva may have locked door fearing an intruder, after hearing Pistorius shouted at imagined intruder
Defence repeatedly asking why police did not make simple checks - were there other phones, did u check lighting,
Roux: There could be a person with dangerous weapons in bathroom. "We have a person without his legs on wanting to protect himself and her."
Defence says the housing complex manager received call at 03.19.12 from OP asking for help.
Botha admits he hasn't checked whether Pistorius called Netcare hospital. Roux: That call was made at 3.20am.
Defence: it seems an approach was adopted to discard anything consistent with defence?
Defence: there were no signs of assault on Reeva or any signs of her defending herself against assault
Roux: They were in love. "Did you find anything as an investigating officer to say that was not true?" Botha admits not.
Roux points out that the security guard that #OscarPistorius spoke to on the phone heard him crying after he forgot to put phone down
Court adjouned until 1.30
Roux (Defence) having a go - Botha confirms Oscar said on scene about issue of burglar.
Roux how did you know the distance travelled? I have some experience with forensics.
Botha says one bullet cartridge found outside bathroom, three others inside
Roux have you tested the visibility in the bedroom at night with the curtains closed? We have, it's pitch dark.
Witness heard "two to three" shots, saw lights on, then 17 minutes later heard "two to three" more shots.
Botha concedes that witness who heard 3 shots - then woman screaming - then 3 shots got number of shots wrong.
Roux: Did witness say she heard it was Pistorius or Steenkamp talking between 2 and 3am? Botha: She did not. It sounded like an argument.
The witness's house is about 600-odd metres away from Pistorius. Gasp from Pistorius family. Botha: "She said it under oath."
Roux this testosterone, lets put it in context - whats the name of the medication? Botha can't say.
Defence says that substance was not steroids, not banned substance, but a herbal remedy. presented in court as used testosterone.
Roux instead of verifying infomation, you introduce untested evidence. It would have been easy to get some idea of what it was instead of simply saying it's "used testosterone".
Roux confirms substance found is herbal remedy called Testoconpasupium Coenzyme - legal and apparently used by athletes.
Botha admits to magistrate that he "didn't read the whole name" when claiming testosterone found. Botha on ropes, floundering.
Botha starts getting aggressive. Barely 20 minutes into cross exam and he's unravelling. Horribly.
#defense #pistorius says PM showed steenkamp's bladder empty when died, consistent with pistorius account she got up to go to toilet
Roux usually at 3am you wouldn't find an empty bladder. Botha agrees.
Botha concedes that if, on Oscar's version, Reeva went to bathroom, he would've heard noises.
Roux for Defence ripping into police. Said they put worst possible twist on everything
Defence says Reeva may have locked door fearing an intruder, after hearing Pistorius shouted at imagined intruder
Defence repeatedly asking why police did not make simple checks - were there other phones, did u check lighting,
Roux: There could be a person with dangerous weapons in bathroom. "We have a person without his legs on wanting to protect himself and her."
Defence says the housing complex manager received call at 03.19.12 from OP asking for help.
Botha admits he hasn't checked whether Pistorius called Netcare hospital. Roux: That call was made at 3.20am.
Defence: it seems an approach was adopted to discard anything consistent with defence?
Defence: there were no signs of assault on Reeva or any signs of her defending herself against assault
Roux: They were in love. "Did you find anything as an investigating officer to say that was not true?" Botha admits not.
Roux points out that the security guard that #OscarPistorius spoke to on the phone heard him crying after he forgot to put phone down
Court adjouned until 1.30
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
And the sliding balcony door was open as he went to get a fan from the balcony.
- Thread starter
- #255
Indeed. This is the Twenty20 version of the full trial/Test.
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Pretty much my thoughts. You don't just put 4 shots into a door like that.
Another thing to consider: How many of you or you missus, when you wake up in the middle of the night to take a slash in your own home with nobody else in it, do any of you actually lock the door?
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Just read the cross examination, the OB don't seem to be up to much either - all pretty simple questions, didn't read the lebel
Ⓩ-Ⓐ-Ⓜ-Ⓞ-Ⓡ-Ⓐ
Hove / Παρος
This is going to be a trial and a half.
Just from the highlighted the police look like they have made their own minds up about OP's innocence or otherwise. They had better make sure they have got things right because this defence counsel looks like he knows his onions.
KZNSeagull how hot this time of year would it be where OP lived? Would it be realistic to have doors open and fans etc. (as OP states) because it was too hot to sleep at night in his bedroom?
KZNSeagull
Well-known member
The magistrate has had a go at defence council for laying into the Officer too much - they have only had 4 days to get some info together. But yes, the cop does sound like a bit of an arse so far!
Has been hot - quite normal to have doors and windows open and fans going this time of year. And the sound of an argument and gunshots would carry at that time of night if door open.