Official Southampton Away Thread - Away tickets sold out

[e77]

that was also done, what have you only JUST joined NSC or something

Well if people don't want it then it shall stop and I can end my flirtation with democracy and return to banning people on a whim.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Do you actually believe any of that or have you just become brainwashed by your job? I thought you were more of a common sense person rather than some of the health and safety nazi type stewards who post on here.

Trying to be difficult!! I think you'll find people are trying to enjoy themselves at a leisure activity which they've paid to do. If stewards just kept their noses out of it every week and let people stand I bet there'd be virtually no problems. In fact you can prove it - since St Marys opened how many fans in the northern end have injured themselves, there must be some figures?

I'd like to see the video, I bet it's not at a british ground with backs on the seats but at a foreign ground with the rows of benches - those things do pose a hazard.

Don't read the Terms and Conditions of Entry then? Or the Ground Regulations that are posted everywhere? How about my "fun and enjoyment" happens to involve breaking into your house and shitting in your bath? Against the law? Who says?

It's the Northam End and there are injuries on a weekly basis from people who simply overbalance and fall into the row in front of them or down the steps. I will get the figures.

If stewards "kept their noses out of it" you would have no football to watch - the ground regulations would be breached and every game would be played behind closed doors - there would be no revenue and clubs would fold. But, hey ho, you got to stand at a match and display your contempt for the laws that were brought in to protect you AND OTHER PEOPLE - which is the main part that people seem to forget. Suppose I had paid to watch a film and felt like standing up all the way through - is that safe? Is that, more importantly, conducive to others enjoying the film as well?

It matters not that you have "paid to enjoy yourselves" - you still have to comply with the law, it really is that simple. I explained it to a seven year old and even they understood it. Are you really telling me that you do not have the mental processing capacity of a seven year old?

I am far from the "nazi" (internet law seven invoked early on this one) that you would like me to be. I teach stewards how to ensure that customers have the best experience possible - and that means ALL customers, not just the numbnuts who think the law does not apply to them. It applies to the idiots who try to smuggle drink into the ground - only having a tipple while I watch the match guv. Or those that try to nip off for a quick fag - can't last 90 minutes mate, got to have a ciggy. I teach them how to respond to people who don't or won't understand that the match is about more than them proving they can stand unaided for 90 minutes. They watch horrific videos of what goes wrong at not just football matches but other spectator events - and they understand exactly what they are there for. They are trained in how to respond to incidents, accidents and problems.

By the same token, the ones that I train are taught how to deal with conflict and how to de-escalate situations. They are taught that pointing and staring is a sure way of making a bad situation worse. They are shown how to use body language, tone and words to solve a problem. They have qualifications in First Aid because they deal with the prat who falls down the stairs. They have Customer Service qualifications to deal with the prat who then wants to sue the club for letting him fall down the stairs. And ultimately, they are all qualified in Physical Intervention for the occasion when the idiot fan - who still thinks it is "all about him" decides to get arsey.

The same as in any other business - if you don't like the laws of admission, then don't come in. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

 

[Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews]

I can end my flirtation with democracy and return to banning people on a whim.

is this a joke comment or are you a wanker?

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Oh yes, you could always try Hillsborough videos for what happens when a crowd is crushed from the back. Or Ibrox. Or even JLS turning on the Xmas lights for a demonstration of how a crowd creates a pressure wave when the people at the back put pressure on. Heysel when the actual stadium collapsed (granted, not English, but then again it was hardly Johnny Bloody Foreigner was it). More than four people in a square metre is the indicator for potential injuries - you want to take a row of people and topple them forward and see what happens? If it's all one "type" of fan, then you pays your money, you takes your chance. However, when you are the away fans you are more than just "one type".

If you get bored (and I mean REALLY bored) then look at this link - Crowd Disasters | Prof. G. Keith Still PhD. BSc. FIMA - we do loads of work with his data and also New Bucks University. Crowd management being a science huh - who woulda thunk it?

 

[e77]

is this a joke comment or are you a wanker?

Depends if you have a sense of humour or not.

 

[Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews]

Oh yes, you could always try Hillsborough videos for what happens when a crowd is crushed from the back. Or Ibrox. Or even JLS turning on the Xmas lights for a demonstration of how a crowd creates a pressure wave when the people at the back put pressure on. Heysel when the actual stadium collapsed (granted, not English, but then again it was hardly Johnny Bloody Foreigner was it). More than four people in a square metre is the indicator for potential injuries - you want to take a row of people and topple them forward and see what happens? If it's all one "type" of fan, then you pays your money, you takes your chance. However, when you are the away fans you are more than just "one type".

If you get bored (and I mean REALLY bored) then look at this link - Crowd Disasters | Prof. G. Keith Still PhD. BSc. FIMA - we do loads of work with his data and also New Bucks University. Crowd management being a science huh - who woulda thunk it?

i'm just wondering how many times in the last,say 100 years that 1000+ people have turned up in the same place at the same time and no-ones been crushed to death?

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

i'm just wondering how many times in the last,say 100 years that 1000+ people have turned up in the same place at the same time and no-ones been crushed to death?

Oh, I think once is enough, don't you?

 

[jordanseagull]

If you want to stand outside and listen to the match on the radio, be my guest. I have it on good authority that you will be sitting - especially as you are in the section right next to the control room. Those that don't will be ejected "to encourage the others". And yes, that will mean multiple ejections followed by banning orders of three to five matches. If you cause more problems you will be in the cells under the stands. It really is that simple.

Your ticket says "sit". The ground regulations say "sit". You will be asked to "sit". Why would you feel the need to show how big and clever you can be by getting ejected because you didn't understand something that I can train a dog to do in less than 90 minutes?

Stand when we score, stand when they have someone sent off, stand when they have a last minute equaliser disallowed for no good reason, but for the sake of safety, sit down when you don't need to. I will try and find the video which shows what happens when people don't sit and the back row takes a tumble forwards. Until the FA sees sense and provides a safe, controlled standing area, the only people who will end up getting hurt are those at the front, not the big boys at the back.

The only reason the Northam End stands is that they were not stopped when the ground was first built - therefore they have not been trained. It's a problem that is being addressed from a couple of different fronts. You are in the ground for a matter of hours - enjoy the match rather than trying to be difficult.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Very good. Half term already?

I like to think of myself more like Mussolini. Could you change the picture?

 

[Billy the Fish]

Don't read the Terms and Conditions of Entry then? Or the Ground Regulations that are posted everywhere? How about my "fun and enjoyment" happens to involve breaking into your house and shitting in your bath? Against the law? Who says?

It's the Northam End and there are injuries on a weekly basis from people who simply overbalance and fall into the row in front of them or down the steps. I will get the figures.

If stewards "kept their noses out of it" you would have no football to watch - the ground regulations would be breached and every game would be played behind closed doors - there would be no revenue and clubs would fold. But, hey ho, you got to stand at a match and display your contempt for the laws that were brought in to protect you AND OTHER PEOPLE - which is the main part that people seem to forget. Suppose I had paid to watch a film and felt like standing up all the way through - is that safe? Is that, more importantly, conducive to others enjoying the film as well?

It matters not that you have "paid to enjoy yourselves" - you still have to comply with the law, it really is that simple. I explained it to a seven year old and even they understood it. Are you really telling me that you do not have the mental processing capacity of a seven year old?

A seven year old has no choice but to believe what you say, it's in the nature of a child to do what an adult tells them. I have the mental capacity to think about a situation and decide the level of danger I'm in based on my previous experiences. Just because you, the safety officer or the government tells me it's dangerous to stand up in a modern football ground that doesn't make it right. I seen people go over two rows of seats after a goal loads of times and never seen an injury worth mentioning, or the dreaded domino effect because the backs of the seats stop it happening.

As for it being the law, well it's against the law to listen to music in some parts of the world, I guess none of those people should do that. What about the people in barcelona speaking their own language, that used to be illegal so should they have all followed the law.

What happend at Hillsbrough, heysel and ibrox have very little relevance in todays modern stadiums and with todays culture at football matches.

 

[Dr. Notthenineo'clocknews]

one thing puzzles me though, how is it unsafe to stand in the MRE at Gigg Lane and watch Bury play, but the following weekend you can legally and safely stand in the same spot at the same stadium and watch FC United play despite the latter having a larger attendence

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

A seven year old has no choice but to believe what you say, it's in the nature of a child to do what an adult tells them. I have the mental capacity to think about a situation and decide the level of danger I'm in based on my previous experiences. Just because you, the safety officer or the government tells me it's dangerous to stand up in a modern football ground that doesn't make it right. I seen people go over two rows of seats after a goal loads of times and never seen an injury worth mentioning, or the dreaded domino effect because the backs of the seats stop it happening.

As for it being the law, well it's against the law to listen to music in some parts of the world, I guess none of those people should do that. What about the people in barcelona speaking their own language, that used to be illegal so should they have all followed the law.

What happend at Hillsbrough, heysel and ibrox have very little relevance in todays modern stadiums and with todays culture at football matches.

We are not discussing what is "right". I know that most grounds could quite happily have people standing up. We are talking about the law - legislation that was passed. We all know that at 3 in the morning we could top 100mph on the nearest dual carriageway - but it's not legal. It also doesn't take into consideration the fact that your experience may be great - but it does not mitigate for professional experience across many different areas of driving and the mechanical state of your car. Similarly, your experience is great - but it is limited to the matches you have experience of and how you have viewed the experience.

If it is illegal, and you are asked to follow the law (which you have agreed to do in buying a ticket) then is it too much to ask that you actually do that rather that pontificate on a subject which you have limited experience on and base what you want to do on what keeps you happy and does not take into consideration those around you, the regulations, lines of sight, the reaction of the crowd around you, the reaction of the opposition supporters, the need of the people responsible for your safety to keep you safe and to enable them to carry out their job to the best of their ability.

In your own little Xanadu, have all standing stadia, but until then, just try to make the life of the people who are paid to look after you easier, and consider that actually the people around you might be thinking "what a twat, I wish he would sit down and stop making a prick of himself". Because that is generally what they are thinking.

We learn from history and previous disasters so that we use that information to inform what we do now. Whilst current grounds may be better built and have greater safety, take a look at the videos for all the disasters and see if you can spot what is missing from every single one. The students spot it in seconds. When we show it to people who have been subject to banning orders for breaking the rules it takes them longer, but they get it in the end. They are all on Youtube, it won't take you more than a few minutes to watch them. They shouldn't happen again - look at the Dutch Rememberance Ceremony video as well and consider what happened there because someone did something that was not expected.

Is football really so different if you have to behave with consideration for rules and for those around you?

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

one thing puzzles me though, how is it unsafe to stand in the MRE at Gigg Lane and watch Bury play, but the following weekend you can legally and safely stand in the same spot at the same stadium and watch FC United play despite the latter having a larger attendence

League vs Non-League licensing. Doesn't make a lot of sense, although FC United are strange in that normally League clubs have a higher attendance than non-League. The problem will come if they come into the League and their fans are not used to the rules and regulations. However, the ground regulations apply to the ground and not the teams, as do the safety certificates - not sure why their safety officer and stewards are not proactive with following the legislation there?

 

[Billy the Fish]

You make the assumption that all around me want to sit down, at most of our away games that isn't the case. It's on record on another thread that I was surrounded by old people, women and children at The withdean on saturday and guess what, I sat down all game so the kids behind me could see, the majority wanted to sit so most people sat.

It's horses for courses, at charlton everyone stood up because the majority wanated to stand, there were no major injuries or disasters and nobody was chucked out. No drama at all.

People want a choice, you've even said it yourself about the safe standing. I don't want all standing stadia - that would be stupid. I just want common sense to prevail and people who want to stand be allowed to stand and people who sit be allowed to sit - everyones happy. The surveys have shown this is what the majority want, so why can't we make it happen?

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

Then you need to be pushing the licensing authorities - which is what most footballing grounds are doing. The authorities need to see that crowd trouble is reduced (most places it is but there will always be clubs that have problems) and that people need a place to stand in safety. They also need to work out how to put crush barriers in that will protect people and not kill them. Personally, tiered areas in blocks of three steps with a clear access at regular points would suit me as it would contain people to a relatively small area, enable them to stand and in the event of a crush my stewards could get in there and pull people out. It also means that in the event of another incident they are not blocked from getting in to the problem. Keeping stairwells and access/egress points clear is also crucial. (Starting to see the problems from my point of view?!) My best option would be to have stewards in with the crowd to monitor it but that would be opening them to all sorts of issues. As it is they get spat on, tripped, pushed, have things thrown at them - and that's from their home fans that they actually get on fairly well with!

If you can come up with an idea which protects the people in the crowd and enables overall safety to be maintained (the ability to evacuate an area, or to get into someone who has had a medical emergency) then get it to the FA.

My main concerns are that we end up with a crush because some idiots try the "wave" game from the back (Oasis fans are experts at this) or that some poor bastard goes down in the middle with a cardiac arrest and he can't be got to quickly.

 

[Billy the Fish]

look at the Dutch Rememberance Ceremony video as well and consider what happened there because someone did something that was not expected.

Just watched it. Is that an example of panic spreading though a crowd and everyone going into a flight reaction?

Surely you can't plan for something like that. If you want to talk about poor crowd management you only have to look at this years Love parade in germany, 20-something people died in a crush.

Big crowds need to be controlled, I do understand that.

 

[Billy the Fish]

If you can come up with an idea which protects the people in the crowd and enables overall safety to be maintained (the ability to evacuate an area, or to get into someone who has had a medical emergency) then get it to the FA.

I'm sure you know that the Germans have already done it and put it into practice.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

The Germans are pretty good - but look at the Love Parade in Duisburg. The Dutch one is interesting - we have the CCTV footage and it shows the soldiers dropping their weapons and running as well - people climbing over each other to get out. Got a video at work of an experiment which involved four couples being shown war films all morning, and then in the afternoon once the film had started they threw a flashbang into the room. The guys climbed over their partners to get out and one of them elbowed his girlfriend in the face when she tried to grab him. You can't control the emotions of people in a crowd situation and that is one of the main concerns. If you have strong stomach search for the Great White fire video and take a good look at the front door of the club to see what people will do to each other - even to the extent of virtually killing themselves at the same time. One of the only videos which has people making a concerted effort to save each other is the Bradford fire video. Lucky there were no fences there...

Oh yes -in all the videos where there is major injury or death there are no stewards - not one person to take charge and lead the situation or to give the crowd some sort of confidence that someone is in charge. Frightening. The stewards at Bradford followed the "old rules" - get them in and lock the doors then go for a coffee. Locked doors killed about a quarter of the people there because they went where they thought they could get out and found they couldn't.

We also show the Ikea opening in London - evil lady shoppers, at one point a child is pulled out of the crowd because he is about to get trampled!

The psychology of crowd behaviour is fascinating, seriously - but it probably makes us over-nervous because it is so nasty when it goes wrong.

 

[Billy the Fish]

If you have strong stomach search for the Great White fire video and take a good look at the front door of the club to see what people will do to each other - even to the extent of virtually killing themselves at the same time. .

A mate of mine has just finished his fireman training and he talked me though that video a while back. The pile of bodies in the doorway is pretty bad, it seems strange when you watch it at home that nobody tried to help them or drag them out the way.

 

[HampshireSeagulls]

That's not the only example of people blocking a doorway and not helping each other - couple of US concerts have the same, the Love Parade was similar and we use a Pamplona Bull Run as well - if one person had stopped to pick up the single person that had fallen, then there would not have been 40 injured people - luckily no deaths.

The Great White fire is nasty - you can see someone coming out on fire towards the end as the windows explode. The Bradford one is surreal with people igniting once they get on the pitch (fire triangle stuff - the oxygen in the stand was minimal, once they got into fresh air then the heat-source-oxygen triangle was made). I am led to believe that the person at the end who is burning and walking had an official cause of death as "extensive trauma" as he was beaten to death by people trying to put him out - you can see people stamping on him.

Watching the way crowds behave is weird, animalistic even.