[Technology] **** OFFICIAL Agile Project Management Thread ****

[Moshe Gariani]

Waterfall laddie, waterfall.

I rather like Munkfish's neologisms in this thread..."waterful" and "business enchancement" seem quite apt.

 

[Brovion]

I've worked with it at 3 different places and I've seen it done poorly, but I have also seen it done really well - we got a lot out of it, but you do need everyone to buy into it. In my 35 years in software, I picked up some of the best techniques I've come across.

Agreed. I'm a big fan and over the past five years or so the most successful projects I've worked on have all been Agile. When I changed jobs last time, in order to try and limit the number of offers, I said I was only interested in places where they used Agile. (Having said that I ended up at a place that said it was going to go Agile, but hasn't!). As you say everyone has to buy into it, including the chickens.

Like you I'm a developer, I'm not sure it works quite so well outside system development. I don't think you could build a shopping mall for example using Agile methodology.


OT - And [MENTION=17261]Iggle Piggle[/MENTION] I'm still eating Ginsters Cornish Pastys for breakfast at my desk.

 

[dazzer6666]

Agreed. I'm a big fan and over the past five years or so the most successful projects I've worked on have all been Agile. When I changed jobs last time, in order to try and limit the number of offers, I said I was only interested in places where they used Agile. (Having said that I ended up at a place that said it was going to go Agile, but hasn't!). As you say everyone has to buy into it, including the chickens.

Like you I'm a developer, I'm not sure it works quite so well outside system development. I don't think you could build a shopping mall for example using Agile methodology.


OT - And [MENTION=17261]Iggle Piggle[/MENTION] I'm still eating Ginsters Cornish Pastys for breakfast at my desk.

I've only seen it used (or attempt to be used) in projects other than systems development.................

 

[casbom]

We're started to move from a Waterfall approach to incorporating Agile but not fully - which so far is having mixed results. So this iteration approach works fine for small projects but for larger project that have multiple increments we're finding development and testing is taking longer than if it was just pure waterfall!

 

[highflyer]

I rather like Munkfish's neologisms in this thread..."waterful" and "business enchancement" seem quite apt.

'Business enchancement' is a brilliant description for management consultancy

 

[FamilyGuy]

It's horses for courses ...

I qualified as a PMP with PMI in 2002 and Prince practitioner in 2008 having first got involved in IT in the 1980s
Now been project / programme managing for almost 20 years.

Agile [I first met it as RAD under DSDM in the early 1990s has its place, …….

For more contemporary Agile thinking, see www.agilebusiness.org (what was once the original DSDM Website)

 

[vegster]

Apart from you get to be super duper dynamic and hold meetings where you (seriously) all stand up and you get to hold a cuddly toy when it's your turn to talk. Might be doing it an injustice tho. Has it become less wanky recently?

What ever happened to blowing the Conch shell ?

 

[Seagull73]

We're started to move from a Waterfall approach to incorporating Agile but not fully - which so far is having mixed results. So this iteration approach works fine for small projects but for larger project that have multiple increments we're finding development and testing is taking longer than if it was just pure waterfall!

Yeah and that is why the definition of MVP and the acceptance criteria for each sprint must be fully defined before the development starts. Waterfall and Agile don't really mix, and so the development lifecycle almost needs to stop Waterfall planning at a particular point, and pick up Agile from the point onwards. It's nigh on impossible to try and do sprint and iterations using a mix of Waterfall and Agile.

Agile does work, but it must be on the basis that the development teams understand that on release to production, if they have delivered a steaming pile of poo (which has been my experience on a few occasions), they accept the defects and work on them as a priority before they continue with the ongoing development. Trying to convince Tech teams of that is not always an easy challenge.

 

[Mackenzie]

Well paid it may be, but pushing buttons for a living must be pretty soul destroying for you guys.

Ever thought about selling ice creams from a cold box along Brighton beach? I believe there is an opening these days.

 

[HalfaSeatOn]

Yeah and that is why the definition of MVP and the acceptance criteria for each sprint must be fully defined before the development starts. Waterfall and Agile don't really mix, and so the development lifecycle almost needs to stop Waterfall planning at a particular point, and pick up Agile from the point onwards. It's nigh on impossible to try and do sprint and iterations using a mix of Waterfall and Agile.

Agile does work, but it must be on the basis that the development teams understand that on release to production, if they have delivered a steaming pile of poo (which has been my experience on a few occasions), they accept the defects and work on them as a priority before they continue with the ongoing development. Trying to convince Tech teams of that is not always an easy challenge.

I know the basic premise of agile and waterfall but can you not run a waterfall project with specific deliverables in agile eg develop an app within a larger scope. Seems ok conceptually. In practice?

 

[Lower West Stander]

We're started to move from a Waterfall approach to incorporating Agile but not fully - which so far is having mixed results. So this iteration approach works fine for small projects but for larger project that have multiple increments we're finding development and testing is taking longer than if it was just pure waterfall!

Eh?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Lethargic]

It's unfortunate if this is your experience and understanding of "Agile" and perhaps indicates that the people around you don't fully understand (or maybe don't want to understand) how it can/should deliver benefit.

In my practical experience, and having recently retired from an IT career of some 52 years, Agile can and does work and delivers tangible benefit and progress. It's not always easy, but in my experience it genuinely does work.

In 52 years I've worked with many "new IT systems", and in my practical experience, Agile is the one thing that I can look back on with confidence.

CAN being the key word here I agree with you when done right its great unfortunately it is very rarely done right and agile has become an abused buzz word which basically relate to cutting corner in most companies.
When I am currently is a complete mismash of methodologies that we are now following an agile waterfall methodology.

 

[beorhthelm]

Agile [I first met it as RAD under DSDM in the early 1990s has its place, but as mentioned above, only if it is done properly. But it is NOT always the right way to do it. It lends itself well to software development projects but with infrastructure delivery, I strongly advocate a full and complete design is prepared before any tin is purchased and commissioned.

glad im not the only one to notice its really just a retread of the RAD concept. the place to use it is for small development, targeted products where the user has clear idea what they want. ideally when technical people are initiating, so they can articulate what they want.

unfortunatly its being used as a fashionable catch all replacment for general project management, everything becomes a steaming pile of backlogs. in my company the budgeting and resourcing (sorry) still follows the old systems so we have weeks of "discovery" to before we engage in the project proper, planned to last another month or two, at which point Agile ceremonies (really sorry) take up more time than development. which is frustrating when i could have done the project in 1 week.

 

[clapham_gull]

The problem of course that many people who profess to be experts in these "soft" technology roles could barely write 5 lines of script (if they know what one is).

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

Well paid it may be, but pushing buttons for a living must be pretty soul destroying for you guys.

Ever thought about selling ice creams from a cold box along Brighton beach? I believe there is an opening these days.

It's not all pushing buttons my friend - we get to go to meetings and write reports and stuff.
Selling ice creams on the beach would make for a less stressful lifestyle but can I still invoice £500 a day?
And will I need to provide my own cold box or does the client provide ....

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

The problem of course that many people who profess to be experts in these "soft" technology roles could barely write 5 lines of script (if they know what one is).

Ah, one should never profess to be an "expert" in anything, since an "ex" is a has-been and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure ....

Back in the day before OO tools, developers used to get paid by the number of lines of code written/developed .... [pre windows]

 

[Mackenzie]

It's not all pushing buttons my friend - we get to go to meetings and write reports and stuff.
Selling ice creams on the beach would make for a less stressful lifestyle but can I still invoice £500 a day?
And will I need to provide my own cold box or does the client provide ....

You’d clear £500:easily in this weather.....flip flops and ice box not provided.

 

[dazzer6666]

It's not all pushing buttons my friend - we get to go to meetings and write reports and stuff.
Selling ice creams on the beach would make for a less stressful lifestyle but can I still invoice £500 a day?
And will I need to provide my own cold box or does the client provide ....

£500/day ? Blimey. Not in Canary Wharf.

 

[clapham_gull]

Well I've just completed and passed my Agile Project management "exams" (well hardly) and afterwards the penny dropped. I learnt this at University but they didn't call it "Agile" - that's just been tagged on recently.

As above it's just a re-hash of the reaction to RAD development with a very dubious definition of "quality".

I came away thinking (used the wrong way) simply offers excuses.

It took 10 years (on time)
It cost 5 million (on budget)

.. and the project delivered a "turd". That's right and a "quality" turd no less.

"A Turd" was a "must have" but we managed to persuade the users that all the other features were "could have" and we were "empowered" to drop them.

I currently realised why so far projects I've experienced have gone wrong.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Having spent the thick end of 30 years using various methodologies trying to get the best out of gangs of various computer science graduates, I have had the most success with a very well balanced mix of the promise of drugs and threats of extreme violence.

Hope this helps