Nuclear explosion in North Korea? Or earthquake?

[The Clamp]

The Chinese certainly don't mention it! Also I think you mean 1961 treaty.

No. I don't mean the 1961 treaty, I mean the 1979 treaty. Renewed in 1981 and 2001. For the record, I don't think for a second the Chinese would honour this pact but the facts remain, in 1971 they signed a treaty coupling them as allies that is valid until 2021.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Genius! To 'un f***' the world we kill about 2 billion. What are our leaders waiting for?!

Got a better idea?

 

[5ways]

No. I don't mean the 1961 treaty, I mean the 1979 treaty. Renewed in 1981 and 2001. For the record, I don't think for a second the Chinese would honour this pact but the facts remain, in 1971 they signed a treaty coupling them as allies that is valid until 2021.

It was the 1961 treaty that was renewed in 1981 and 2001.

 

[Bob'n'weave]

NK is attention seeking. He is enjoying his new status as most talked about leader on the planet and seems to be desperately seeking recognition/validation.
Either that, or he really is a grade A looney and we are going to have to take his toys away and put him on the naughty step.
China and Japan are already saying that NK's actions are unacceptable and that top level talks/diplomacy are needed. They don't want war - but equally do not want NK chucking any more nukes around, someone could loose an eye. If diplomatic talks are going to happen then NK gets what it really wants, recognition, so we (U.S, Europe, China, Russia etc) either get Kim around the table or continue patting him on the head and wait for a loud bang. I think it should be up to Russia and China to take the lead on guiding NK through this. They are both historic allies, so should be able to influence Kim.

 

[The Clamp]

It was the 1961 treaty that was renewed in 1981 and 2001.

I think you may be right, says 79 in a source I read but 61 in all others. Anyway they are allies in theory, they wouldn't be in practice. Which is a shame because it would be good to give China a bit of a tickle too, bring them down a peg or two.

 

[DumLum]

Have they? I'm, 'left', albeit far from loony (or Looney), and it hadn't occurred to me to blame Trump for Korea. Actually I don't blame Trump for anything - after all, he hasn't actually done anything yet (merely tweeted nonsense). So which loony lefties are blaming Trump? Is it Corbyn or (er, I can't remember the names of any of the other lefties - Wedgwood Bnn's dead, isn't he? Livingstone is persona non grata.... who, of any substance - gobby teenage SWP titwombles don't count).

I'm pretty central and lean to the left on a lot of issues.
I wasn't thinking about politicians blaming Trump but I wouldn't be suprised if there are extreme left wing comedians on Twitter blaming it all on him. Which is disappointing because it weakons their credibility and I agree with them on a lot of other issues. Sorry about my spelling.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

NK is attention seeking. He is enjoying his new status as most talked about leader on the planet and seems to be desperately seeking recognition/validation.
Either that, or he really is a grade A looney and we are going to have to take his toys away and put him on the naughty step.

Thought you were talking about Trump there

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Sadly there are two despots in this world right now, and one gangster.The scary thing is the western despot of Trump. With a strong reliable US Pres we could keep NK in check. Sadly the US Pres is a complete buffoon that has no idea how to string a sentence together. He does, however, support white supremacists, the hunting of bears, a law he repealed, and a need for a fight. We're all safe.

 

[Scotchegg]

Simple solution, get rid of the middle east, in fact get rid of anything exporting terrorism. Take out the home grown terrorists without question. That'll be most muslims gone. Most will say it without having the balls to admit it. Muslims are destroying our way of life. And outdated communism in countries such as NK are desperately scrambling to have an identity. See what that did for Cuba. The people suffer for this totalitarian regime. We get 'upset' whilst people die for no reason. It still happens in China and Russia too. We have our own western problem with Trump, the most hideous excuse for a President we have ever seen, in our lifetime, people actually voted for this idiot. The world is seriously f'ucked up.

I'm not even going to touch the other stuff...

But North Korea are not communists. Their iconography might resemble a 'classic' communist state but it starts and ends there.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

I'm not even going to touch the other stuff...

But North Korea are not communists. Their iconography might resemble a 'classic' communist state but it starts and ends there.

So, if you want to tell me this, tell me what they are? Don't just make a statement and not back it up.

 

[Scotchegg]

So, if you want to tell me this, tell me what they are? Don't just make a statement and not back it up.

Well, that's no easy definition really, they're a bizarre mashup of some sort of quasi-fascist, dynastic monarchy. In Korean ideology, class is barely mentioned, it's all about being a pure Korean, which is hugely nationalistic and runs it pretty close to fascism, They have marketisation and a dynastic leadership. All three of which are pretty much a direct 180 degree deviation from any sort of Marxist communist teaching. In fact, they don't even mention communism anymore and Marx isn't taught in schools anymore either. It deffo had it's roots in communism and Kim Il Sung was a communist rebel for a long time, but those days are long since gone, they've moved away from that model ever since the death of Il Sung.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Well, that's no easy definition really, they're a bizarre mashup of some sort of quasi-fascist, dynastic monarchy. In Korean ideology, class is barely mentioned, it's all about being a pure Korean, which is hugely nationalistic and runs it pretty close to fascism, They have marketisation and a dynastic leadership. All three of which are pretty much a direct 180 degree deviation from any sort of Marxist communist teaching. In fact, they don't even mention communism anymore and Marx isn't taught in schools anymore either. It deffo had it's roots in communism and Kim Il Sung was a communist rebel for a long time, but those days are long since gone, they've moved away from that model ever since the death of Il Sung.

Good reply, thank you. So why do the Chinese allie with a bunch of Nazi's?

 

[Bob'n'weave]

Thought you were talking about Trump there

Indeed. I'm hoping that the Russians and Chinese step in before Trump does 'the right thing' and flattens NK.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Indeed. I'm hoping that the Russians and Chinese step in before Trump does 'the right thing' and flattens NK.

To be honest, deep in my body, I want NK to be flattened, I'm probably a bad person.

 

[Scotchegg]

Good reply, thank you. So why do the Chinese allie with a bunch of Nazi's?

God knows I think the easy answer is that they want a buffer between their border and the South but like a few people were saying earlier in the thread, their behaviour towards the North over the years is pretty strange. They let an awful lot slide, not least illegal trading over the border, as well as towns along the border that are flooded with North Korean smugglers and refugees. They've toughened up a bit over recent years but even then it's hard not to see it as lip service. To be honest, I'm not that clued up about China, but out of all the countries well involved in the situation, they've always been the one that's been the hardest to understand when it comes to their statements and actions. There's certainly no economic benefits and it's hard to see and diplomatic benefits either really. My best guess is they just don't want conflict (nor the refugee fallout) and see themselves as a diplomatic middle-man than can broker talks and maintain a status quo, which is what they would want whilst it still suits them, but.. I really don't know.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

God knows I think the easy answer is that they want a buffer between their border and the South but like a few people were saying earlier in the thread, their behaviour towards the North over the years is pretty strange. They let an awful lot slide, not least illegal trading over the border, as well as towns along the border that are flooded with North Korean smugglers and refugees. They've toughened up a bit over recent years but even then it's hard not to see it as lip service. To be honest, I'm not that clued up about China, but out of all the countries well involved in the situation, they've always been the one that's been the hardest to understand when it comes to their statements and actions. There's certainly no economic benefits and it's hard to see and diplomatic benefits either really. My best guess is they just don't want conflict (nor the refugee fallout) and see themselves as a diplomatic middle-man than can broker talks and maintain a status quo, which is what they would want whilst it still suits them, but.. I really don't know.

I know that China never enter war, that is fact. Yes they bully countries, Tibet being the most prevalent. But surely when they have a country as dangerous as NK on their doorstep they should be showing the hammer head and battering them if they don't comply? If China lets them get away with it, the rest of us have no chance, because China will not tolerate the west treading on their toes so close to home. So what are China doing exactly? Because it seems to me they are backing the NK situation when they should be telling them to calm down.

I saw an interesting interview the other night suggesting that NK is losing control of its people and wanting to have a war that they know they will lose, purely to set everyone against each other.

 

[Scotchegg]

I know that China never enter war, that is fact. Yes they bully countries, Tibet being the most prevalent. But surely when they have a country as dangerous as NK on their doorstep they should be showing the hammer head and battering them if they don't comply? If China lets them get away with it, the rest of us have no chance, because China will not tolerate the west treading on their toes so close to home. So what are China doing exactly? Because it seems to me they are backing the NK situation when they should be telling them to calm down.

I saw an interesting interview the other night suggesting that NK is losing control of its people and wanting to have a war that they know they will lose, purely to set everyone against each other.

Completely agree, I always thought that if a solution would ever come to pass then it has to be the Chinese to instigate it, or at least, act the part. No way America will ever succeed without military intervention. If the people caught wind that their leadership were playing ball with the Americans, and it would because they're not nearly as isolated as the media portrays them to be, then it would almost certainly create an uproar in the people. These are people that are taught from three years old that America is the source of any and all of their troubles, aggressors who poisoned babies and strung Koreans from the trees during the Korean war. Whilst it's true that the US did commit some pretty grim war crimes which were completely swept away during the Korean war, the propaganda in the North turned it up to 11.

The situation with the people has been on a steady decline for ages now, yet they still put up with it. Ever since I first read about the North, I've been waiting for some sort of uprising but it's just never happened. I thought when they had mass starvation, or their huge economic overhaul that would do it, but nah. Then when the country started to become more open, I thought so but still nope. Even worse, you still hear interviews with defectors that say they want to go back, of all things. I would be interested to see the documentary you said though. I had to study about the North years back, but ever since have had a bit of a grim fascination with the situation. I don't think things have looked very stable ever since Kim Jong Il died and it certainly seems like people are believing in the bullshit less and less. Especially since it was around that time that South Korean media started to be sold in black markets and became more easily obtainable. One of the biggest problems with knowing what the people actually think is that defectors are not really a very trusted source of information and they're often the best we've got.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Completely agree, I always thought that if a solution would ever come to pass then it has to be the Chinese to instigate it, or at least, act the part. No way America will ever succeed without military intervention. If the people caught wind that their leadership were playing ball with the Americans, and it would because they're not nearly as isolated as the media portrays them to be, then it would almost certainly create an uproar in the people. These are people that are taught from three years old that America is the source of any and all of their troubles, aggressors who poisoned babies and strung Koreans from the trees during the Korean war. Whilst it's true that the US did commit some pretty grim war crimes which were completely swept away during the Korean war, the propaganda in the North turned it up to 11.

The situation with the people has been on a steady decline for ages now, yet they still put up with it. Ever since I first read about the North, I've been waiting for some sort of uprising but it's just never happened. I thought when they had mass starvation, or their huge economic overhaul that would do it, but nah. Then when the country started to become more open, I thought so but still nope. Even worse, you still hear interviews with defectors that say they want to go back, of all things. I would be interested to see the documentary you said though. I had to study about the North years back, but ever since have had a bit of a grim fascination with the situation. I don't think things have looked very stable ever since Kim Jong Il died and it certainly seems like people are believing in the bullshit less and less. Especially since it was around that time that South Korean media started to be sold in black markets and became more easily obtainable. One of the biggest problems with knowing what the people actually think is that defectors are not really a very trusted source of information and they're often the best we've got.

It wasn't a documentary I saw, more an interview with an English general that had some insight and believes they want a war they can't win, for the reasons I said. They probably execute more people in NK than anywhere in the rest of the world. He got rid of his Uncle by firing an Exocet missile at him. Quick death but extremely brutal. You see all those NK generals around him with notepads, why? Because they have to write down the words of their leader, the words are gospel and if they don't write them in their notepads they will be executed. Now, I know the western world has flaws, but seriously? I know we all feel a little more than worried by muslim extremists, but I'd still rather have all that than be incarcerated in a North Korea regime.I'm not exactly sure why China doesn't intervene. They only get involved locally as a rule and you don't get more locally than your border. China is implicit in this, they are the only country that can sort this shit out.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Interesting article here .. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/would-really-happen-britain-came-nuclear-attack/

This section certainly caught my attention.

Last Tuesday, as dawn broke over Japan, millions of people in the country’s northernmost prefecture, Hokkaido, were roused from sleep by a beeping alert on their mobile phones.

“Missile launch. Missile launch,” the text message read, at 6.02am. “A missile was fired from North Korea. Please evacuate to a sturdy building or basement.”

Four minutes earlier, a Hwasong-12 intermediate-range ballistic missile had indeed been fired from somewhere near Sunan Air Base in North Korea. It flew right over Hokkaido, then buried itself 500 nautical miles off the coast.

By that time, Japan’s public broadcaster had managed to cut its morning news to a black screen displaying a similar portent to the SMS alert; emergency sirens in Sapporo, Hokkaido’s capital, had started to wail; and train stations around the country froze as passengers were told to seek cover in waiting rooms or in carriages.

I've been guilty of being a bit disinterested in the rising tensions and not really appreciating the fear of having a rogue nuclear state on your doorstep. Being woken by text messages announcing a missile launch, confirmed via the TV, wailing sirens and announcments at train stations to take cover .. f**k me that would be a horrendous experience. South Korean citizens must be even more on edge.

Our civil defence is not as robust for obvious reasons (less immediate threat and limited seismic activity) but it's interesting that text messaging would be a likely first warning if we were ever attacked. Mushroom cloud sad face? ‘The Letter of Last Resort’ is also quite chilling.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm pretty central and lean to the left on a lot of issues.
I wasn't thinking about politicians blaming Trump but I wouldn't be suprised if there are extreme left wing comedians on Twitter blaming it all on him. Which is disappointing because it weakons their credibility and I agree with them on a lot of other issues. Sorry about my spelling.

Cheers! Sorry for the Spanish Inquisition