[News] Norway killings

[Insel affe]

Seems he was already known to police following concerns about possible radicalisation after converting to Islam.

Funny that, it does seem the recently converted seem to go that extra mile, which only goes to show, people further up the chain prey on vulnerable people.

 

[dazzer6666]

This is a common excuse or reason nearly every time there is a political, religious or racist attack. Yeah right, we know you must be mental in the head full stop if you want to kill people for any reason, never mind for religious or political ideals.

It is used as a defence by any lawyer and used by the police and powers that be for two reasons.
1: They don't want copycat killers, thinking oh a crossbow or lorry that is a great idea.
2: They do not want revenge attacks or any kind of backlash which usually follows, so declare the perpetrator as having mental health issues, attempts to nullify some backlash.

It is just another sad day, but it won't stop, mental health issues and religion go hand in hand in my book.
Religion is a crux, for people who are weak, vulnerable, and lacking in faith in themselves and humanity and need guidance.

Definitely….the real ****s are those that prey on the weak and vulnerable in the name of religion……….

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

Religion is a crux, for people who are weak, vulnerable, and lacking in faith in themselves and humanity and need guidance.

So true

 

[herecomesaregular]

So true

It's no surprise to learn that religion came about during a period of real hardship for people, when daily life was at times quite horrific. Pretty convenient to tell a slave, whose every day is misery, that one day, when you die, you will got to a glorious all inclusive resort called Heaven. Easier to control then. I also understand it's helpful to tell children about God to ease them through trauma, to believe in Heaven if you are sat in a foxhole being bombed to shit or that you will meet a loved one again when going through the pain of losing someone. But I can't get around just the "convenience" of this. Though I don't agree it shows believers necessarily as weak or vulnerable in any way. For some people they just need to believe in something Other.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

It's no surprise to learn that religion came about during a period of real hardship for people, when daily life was at times quite horrific. Pretty convenient to tell a slave, whose every day is misery, that one day, when you die, you will got to a glorious all inclusive resort called Heaven. Easier to control then. I also understand it's helpful to tell children about God to ease them through trauma, to believe in Heaven if you are sat in a foxhole being bombed to shit or that you will meet a loved one again when going through the pain of losing someone. But I can't get around just the "convenience" of this. Though I don't agree it shows believers necessarily as weak or vulnerable in any way. For some people they just need to believe in something Other.

That was my Mum's view, Well you have to believe in something. I respected her beliefs and anybody else's but to just take something on blind faith without questioning it just seems very strange to me.

I believe it was invented because people don't want to accept death is the final curtain and there is nothing beyond it. Again, that is very understandable but I think it's just a mix of delusion and wishful thinking.

Each to their own

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It's no surprise to learn that religion came about during a period of real hardship for people, when daily life was at times quite horrific. Pretty convenient to tell a slave, whose every day is misery, that one day, when you die, you will got to a glorious all inclusive resort called Heaven. Easier to control then. I also understand it's helpful to tell children about God to ease them through trauma, to believe in Heaven if you are sat in a foxhole being bombed to shit or that you will meet a loved one again when going through the pain of losing someone. But I can't get around just the "convenience" of this. Though I don't agree it shows believers necessarily as weak or vulnerable in any way. For some people they just need to believe in something Other.

Absolutely spot on. I recommend The History of Western Philosophy, by Bertrand Russell written in 1945. He charts the evolution of religion from exactly what you describe, a life that for most was brutal and short, with the idea of an afterlife the only thing that kept them going.

I have some sympathy for people who find religion a comfort, and use it to inform a good life, charity, kindness, and fairness. There is at least one regular poster on NSC who fits this category (and absolute for that).

However, one of the things that I feel most content about is breaking free from the church and training myself to be able to say 'there is no god' without fear. It helps me focus on the important bit - the fate of the living, my family, my friends and myself.

As for those who kill in the name of religion, today it is mostly those attracted to the Islamic death cults. I do think more needs to be done to catch those duped into murderous acts. Apparent this latest character was known to authorities. As was the somewhat more prolific Anders Brevik.

Are they mad? Who knows? If they were not diagnosed as mad before the event, they were certainly identifiable as dangerous in many cases. As I noted earlier I'm not sure what to do about such people, and I appreciate that there are probably ten times as many episodes nipped in the bud by the secret services that we don't always hear about than come to fruition, but I do wonder if the right balance (between intrusive police-state surveillance on the one hand and excessive tolerance of the free speech of 'radicals' on the other) is currently correct. I'd be happy for a bit more surveillance and action I think - but I am rather risk-averse.

Back to Russell, in 1945 he identified branches of Christianity as responsible for the stand-out acts of cruelty and genocide across history, but described Islam as the most tolerant of religions. At the time, it was. Politics, sectarianism, racism and imperatives to genocide are not predicated by religion, they are aspects of the human phenotype, and come to the fore when circumstances change.

Unfortunately ignorance, mediavalism, and poverty have been exploited by sinister perverts who brain-wash the weak, vulnerable and, in some cases, mentally ill, into acts of barbarism (not dissimilar to the strange men who trained skinheads in country retreats in the UK in the 70s, and the football hooligansim 'organisers' on their mobile phones in the early 90s). Voyeuristic perverts, all of them.

If Islam isn't your bag, then white supremacy may suit you better (vide Brevik). Or perhaps radical mysogeny (that weird sect of ugly blokes who can't get a shag, in the news recently). There is a radical solution for every man with a small penis and a big grievance, it seems, and a pied piper somewhere backstage, ready to call the tune.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

I've always like Mark Twains quotation

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it"

 

[Swansman]

This is a common excuse or reason nearly every time there is a political, religious or racist attack. Yeah right, we know you must be mental in the head full stop if you want to kill people for any reason, never mind for religious or political ideals.

It is used as a defence by any lawyer and used by the police and powers that be for two reasons.
1: They don't want copycat killers, thinking oh a crossbow or lorry that is a great idea.
2: They do not want revenge attacks or any kind of backlash which usually follows, so declare the perpetrator as having mental health issues, attempts to nullify some backlash.

It is just another sad day, but it won't stop, mental health issues and religion go hand in hand in my book.
Religion is a crux, for people who are weak, vulnerable, and lacking in faith in themselves and humanity and need guidance.

Absolutely spot on. I recommend The History of Western Philosophy, by Bertrand Russell written in 1945. He charts the evolution of religion from exactly what you describe, a life that for most was brutal and short, with the idea of an afterlife the only thing that kept them going.

I have some sympathy for people who find religion a comfort, and use it to inform a good life, charity, kindness, and fairness. There is at least one regular poster on NSC who fits this category (and absolute for that).

However, one of the things that I feel most content about is breaking free from the church and training myself to be able to say 'there is no god' without fear. It helps me focus on the important bit - the fate of the living, my family, my friends and myself.

As for those who kill in the name of religion, today it is mostly those attracted to the Islamic death cults. I do think more needs to be done to catch those duped into murderous acts. Apparent this latest character was known to authorities. As was the somewhat more prolific Anders Brevik.

Are they mad? Who knows? If they were not diagnosed as mad before the event, they were certainly identifiable as dangerous in many cases. As I noted earlier I'm not sure what to do about such people, and I appreciate that there are probably ten times as many episodes nipped in the bud by the secret services that we don't always hear about than come to fruition, but I do wonder if the right balance (between intrusive police-state surveillance on the one hand and excessive tolerance of the free speech of 'radicals' on the other) is currently correct. I'd be happy for a bit more surveillance and action I think - but I am rather risk-averse.

Back to Russell, in 1945 he identified branches of Christianity as responsible for the stand-out acts of cruelty and genocide across history, but described Islam as the most tolerant of religions. At the time, it was. Politics, sectarianism, racism and imperatives to genocide are not predicated by religion, they are aspects of the human phenotype, and come to the fore when circumstances change.

Unfortunately ignorance, mediavalism, and poverty have been exploited by sinister perverts who brain-wash the weak, vulnerable and, in some cases, mentally ill, into acts of barbarism (not dissimilar to the strange men who trained skinheads in country retreats in the UK in the 70s, and the football hooligansim 'organisers' on their mobile phones in the early 90s). Voyeuristic perverts, all of them.

If Islam isn't your bag, then white supremacy may suit you better (vide Brevik). Or perhaps radical mysogeny (that weird sect of ugly blokes who can't get a shag, in the news recently). There is a radical solution for every man with a small penis and a big grievance, it seems, and a pied piper somewhere backstage, ready to call the tune.

Religion is very rarely the cause of war & death. It is just used to justify it. The real target is almost always money, power and geopolitics - or secular, capitalist values, if you so like.

But its a lot more comfortable for people to believe that something is wrong with religion rather than with our society. For believers in various Godless religions (ideologies) there is a willingness to blame something else. And the media is helping - they are very quick to point out that this guy is a "muslim" but have you ever seen them point out that a murderer is a neo-liberal or a frequent McDonalds visitor? Nope. Because it is highly unsettling for some to believe that all this alleged progress is not necessarily doing mankind any more favours than religion did back in the old days.

 

[Insel affe]

Religion is very rarely the cause of war & death. It is just used to justify it.

Which is what we have both said, people use religion as an excuse.


Religion is for the weak controlled by an elite, it is just the same as everything else including modern secular society, it is controlled by wealth.

 

[Juan Albion]

Definitely….the real ****s are those that prey on the weak and vulnerable in the name of religion……….

Definitely….the real ****s are those that prey on the weak and vulnerable in the name of anything…

 

[Juan Albion]

Religion is for the weak controlled by an elite, it is just the same as everything else including modern secular society, it is controlled by wealth.

Gee, thanks.


Can't stop, off to control a few weaklings. . .

 

[Guinness Boy]

Religion is very rarely the cause of war & death. It is just used to justify it. The real target is almost always money, power and geopolitics - or secular, capitalist values, if you so like.

But its a lot more comfortable for people to believe that something is wrong with religion rather than with our society. For believers in various Godless religions (ideologies) there is a willingness to blame something else. And the media is helping - they are very quick to point out that this guy is a "muslim" but have you ever seen them point out that a murderer is a neo-liberal or a frequent McDonalds visitor? Nope. Because it is highly unsettling for some to believe that all this alleged progress is not necessarily doing mankind any more favours than religion did back in the old days.

Geo politics may cover it but more often than not these days it's actually about land, specifically borders arbitrarily drawn up. And often the reason for the drawing of those borders is religion.

We Brits are particularly "good" at it. We had a go in Ireland. Not massively successful. Palestine too. That went well. And India. Wasn't 1947 just dandy?

Sometimes these border disputes are exactly down to Geo Politics (see Russia and Ukraine where Russia doesn't want the EU right on its doorstep nor to lose access to their only warm water port in Sebastopol) but where they are down to separating religions, as in the examples above, it is the religious zealots who demand the separation along religious lines.

And that's before you get to talking about the infighting between Shia and Sunni (I'm fairly sure there aren't too many McDonalds in Iraq or Iran, though admittedly I've not visited either).

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Gee, thanks.


Can't stop, off to control a few weaklings. . .

You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Religion is very rarely the cause of war & death. It is just used to justify it. The real target is almost always money, power and geopolitics - or secular, capitalist values, if you so like.

But its a lot more comfortable for people to believe that something is wrong with religion rather than with our society. For believers in various Godless religions (ideologies) there is a willingness to blame something else. And the media is helping - they are very quick to point out that this guy is a "muslim" but have you ever seen them point out that a murderer is a neo-liberal or a frequent McDonalds visitor? Nope. Because it is highly unsettling for some to believe that all this alleged progress is not necessarily doing mankind any more favours than religion did back in the old days.

I think you have missed an awful lot of water under this bridge, going back over years. We used to have posters on NSC who couldn't go a few days without blurting out something about Islam being the religion of death and advocating all sorts of unpleasant and unrealist solutions to what they saw as the problem (muslims and foreigners, and foreign muslims). We really have only one poster on here who does his now, and he has to watch what he says.

Yes, yes, of course religion is not the reason for terrorism. That isn't the point (any more).

Not sure what you are banging on about regarding godless religions. I though it was you who wears the tin foil hat

 

[dangull]

I've always like Mark Twains quotation

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it"

Or Woody Allen's quote

" I do not fear death, I just don't want to be here when it happens"

 

[Motogull]

I'm not sure what to do about such people,

I'll handle this.

It involves a woodchipper.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Or Woody Allen's quote

" I do not fear death, I just don't want to be here when it happens"

And another of his (slight paraphrase):

"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality by living forever"