[Football] North Macedonia v England

[Pavilionaire]

So he's no different to previous managers? Previous managers who have had a bigger pool of players to choose from. In that case criticise him for tactical inability but not his results.


Same as it ever was then. Hence the tired refrain of England will go out to the first half decent team they face.

I don't dispute, and never have, the claim that Southgate isn't tactically very good or that he shouldn't be criticised. I merely point out, every time people churn out the same old shit about him, that he cannot be criticised for his results seeing as they are better than any England manager other than Alf Ramsey's.

Yes. We've never had good players before and we've never had easy draws. Of course they're only easy until we lose then we lose to the first half decent team we've faced. Although if we beat said team it's because said team is shit.

The fact remains that he is our second most successful manager in our history. Shit as he may be that is fact and if he is as shit as most people think that is a more damning indictment of all previous managers than it is of him.

You cannot talk about England's relative success or failure without looking at the external factors, i.e. the relative strength or weakness of the other international sides out there.

We've talked about how Italy are a pale shadow of the European powerhouse they used to be - 4 times World Cup winners, twice European Champions. Germany are team we struggled to beat after 1966 yet we're now on our longest unbeaten run against them since we lifted the World Cup.

Brazil were a byword for flair and entertainment, yet they've lost their last 2 to Colombia and Uruguay and only drew against Venezuela before that. They are 5th in the qualifying table.

Meanwhile, the riches of the Premier League have helped improve the standard of facilities, coaches and - ultimately - the English players. They play with and against the best in the world every week, so they fear no one. Bellingham, Saka, Foden, Rice are truly gifted young players, but look at some of those who have been in the Southgate system for some years, i.e. Rashford, Sterling, Grealish, and they're nothing like they used to be considering they're at an age when they should be in their prime.

This SHOULD be our time. England should be exciting to watch, fun to watch. This turgid dross is unforgiveable.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

No, not quite.

I'm saying that we never win anything so that shouldn't be the stick with which to beat the manager. Especially as he's got closer than anyone else since and before Ramsey has.

I'm interested to know if we were to win the Euros next summer would you change your tune on him? Or say it was down to the players/the luck of the draw

If we won the Euro‘s I would be ecstatic… but we won’t because he’s tactically inept. The only way that he can win is throwthrow caution to the wind and actually look to win the game rather than not lose it. This style worked 10 years ago but now it’s defunct. His problem is that he’s still using tactics from his Middlesbrough days.

for all my dislike of Southgate as a manager and coach I do think he’s a genuinely nice bloke. My fear is that our lovely media will turn on him a rip him apart when he inevitably fails. It will be messy ….

 

[5Ways Gull]

Thank goodness we weren't playing the whole of Macedonia

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

You cannot talk about England's relative success or failure without looking at the external factors, i.e. the relative strength or weakness of the other international sides out there.

We've talked about how Italy are a pale shadow of the European powerhouse they used to be - 4 times World Cup winners, twice European Champions. Germany are team we struggled to beat after 1966 yet we're now on our longest unbeaten run against them since we lifted the World Cup.

Brazil were a byword for flair and entertainment, yet they've lost their last 2 to Colombia and Uruguay and only drew against Venezuela before that. They are 5th in the qualifying table.

Meanwhile, the riches of the Premier League have helped improve the standard of facilities, coaches and - ultimately - the English players. They play with and against the best in the world every week, so they fear no one. Bellingham, Saka, Foden, Rice are truly gifted young players, but look at some of those who have been in the Southgate system for some years, i.e. Rashford, Sterling, Grealish, and they're nothing like they used to be considering they're at an age when they should be in their prime.

This SHOULD be our time. England should be exciting to watch, fun to watch. This turgid dross is unforgiveable.

The bit in bold I 100% agree with. We have some quality attacking players. I'd love them to be let of the leash.

The rest, I'm not sure I understand. Do you think Brazil, Germany, Italy, Argentina, France, Spain, Holland, Portugal etc have been at full power every tournament? Are you assuming that because we've gone unbeaten against Germany then it is a sign of their weakness rather than our strength?

That some traditional big teams are struggling isn't a sign that the football landscape is weaker than before. Why are they The riches of the premier league and, relatively speaking, the major leagues of Europe means that not only have English players got better(have they really?) but the rest of the world are now on our and Europe's shores and are also benefiting from those improved facilities and coaches.

You say that Rice is truly gifted. Last season you were probably saying that Caicedo was better. He's from Ecuador. As is Estupinian. Both of those would get into the England team. Both have benefited from the money and facilities in the European game.

There are now many, many teams with players playing at the highest level in European football. It's not like the old days where there were a handful of 'proper teams' and a load of makeweights(yes there are still makeweights).

That the big boys can't have it all their own way now is a sign of a rising tide rather than sinking ships.

That is all to say that the relative strength or weakness of international football is debatable and opinion. Southgate being the second most succesful coach in our history is fact. Accept that and then debate his squad selections/tactics. I'll probably agree with a lot of what you say on that topic.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

If we won the Euro‘s I would be ecstatic… but we won’t because he’s tactically inept. The only way that he can win is throwthrow caution to the wind and actually look to win the game rather than not lose it. This style worked 10 years ago but now it’s defunct. His problem is that he’s still using tactics from his Middlesbrough days.

for all my dislike of Southgate as a manager and coach I do think he’s a genuinely nice bloke. My fear is that our lovely media will turn on him a rip him apart when he inevitably fails. It will be messy ….

This is my preferred option but based not on winning the tournament but on our historical failure to do so. If we're going to get knocked out lets get knocked out having played in 5,6,7 goal thrillers all the way through rather than grinding out 1-0s. The going for the jugular approach is actually how we played in 2018.

Unfortunately from a stylistics point of view his more cautious approach got us to a couple of penalties away from winning the Euros last time round. It was also just a fluffed penalty form taking the french to extra time in the quarter finals. And that is as close as we've ever come which is why I can't knock his results. They speak for themselves.

Which is my only point on these threads. His results have been excellent even if his style is now not the most eye catching. Respect the results and give him his due for them.

 

[Easy 10]

Despite cruising to qualification again (not something we could always take for granted), I just KNEW that the pitchfork mob would be out in force, queuing up to lose their shit because we didn't go and win two dead-rubbers by an aggregate of 17-0 playing like Brazil 70, whilst fielding a couple of scratch sides.

The entitlement on here from some is astonishing. I'm long enough in the tooth to recall England routinely absolutely STINKING the place out when we got to tournaments. So seeing us go SF - F - QF in the last 3 is still something of a novelty for me.

Yeah yeah, having got there, we coulda-shoulda and all that. But there's 23 / 31 other teams every 2 years who can also say exactly the same.

I'd be interested to know from those hankering for GS to be binned off, just who exactly the outstanding candidate is, waiting in the wings, to get us over the line and make us Champions ?

Southgate is far from perfect, he has many annoying shortcomings from selections to tactics (who is ever going to universally agree with those ?). But he's consistently got us further than the vast majority of the other muppets who we've burned through.

The entitlement is boring now.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

Despite cruising to qualification again (not something we could always take for granted), I just KNEW that the pitchfork mob would be out in force, queuing up to lose their shit because we didn't go and win two dead-rubbers by an aggregate of 17-0 playing like Brazil 70, whilst fielding a couple of scratch sides.

The entitlement on here from some is astonishing. I'm long enough in the tooth to recall England routinely absolutely STINKING the place out when we got to tournaments. So seeing us go SF - F - QF in the last 3 is still something of a novelty for me.

Yeah yeah, having got there, we coulda-shoulda and all that. But there's 23 / 31 other teams every 2 years who can also say exactly the same.

I'd be interested to know from those hankering for GS to be binned off, just who exactly the outstanding candidate is, waiting in the wings, to get us over the line and make us Champions ?

Southgate is far from perfect, he has many annoying shortcomings from selections to tactics (who is ever going to universally agree with those ?). But he's consistently got us further than the vast majority of the other muppets who we've burned through.

The entitlement is boring now.

As is the entitlement that he’s the man for the job despite failing for the last three tournaments. 10 years ago Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy and Holland were a darn site better than they are now yet we still can’t win when it matters. How many times are we going to qualify and then f*** it up against a more tactically astute manager? Southgate is scared of losing and whilst he has that mind set every manger we face knows exactly how we are going to play. Get the early goal and hold on for dear life, he has no plan B. It’s easier to qualify now than ever before and so he should be using the qualification games as a learning experience so he can actually has a plan B and C for that matter. If he had the personality of any of the recent England managers he would have gone, but he’s a nice bloke and not likely to embarrass English football.

 

[Motogull]

It's interesting. I find Southgate infuriating but despite his loyalty to players who shouldn't be near the squad, he delivers in every qualifying tournament.
I don't watch England in qualifying anymore. I don't have time or interest in doing so. I will watch all games in the big tournaments though, and strangely it isn't his selections that let us down in those - it's the fact that he is always outdone tactically at the highest level.

Tldr; my advice is don't watch or care who he picks in qualifying. Save your annoyance for the semi or final when he gets us there.

world football has been in the doldrums for the last two tournaments. Italy, Holland, Germany, Brazil to name a few are all complete dogshit, we on the other hand have some of the most exciting players in the world coming through and the time ripe for a trophy, so Southgate picks donkeys. It’s always going to end in failure when it comes to any team that’s remotely tactically astute. We should have taken Italy to the cleaners but tactically Southgate got turned over. So in summary, he picks his mates/donkeys and tactically he’s crap but he is a nice guy……

Agreed apart from the nice guy bit. He's bland. You can't be bland at that level.

He seems like a decent guy but my worry is he is going to waste probably the best crop of players we have ever had... at a time where international football isn't as strong as previous decades.

Yes he has done well... World Cup Semi, Euro final but i think a trained chimp in a waistcoat could have done that with our current players.

I think a trained chimp would have been better.

If we won the Euro‘s I would be ecstatic… but we won’t because he’s tactically inept. The only way that he can win is throwthrow caution to the wind and actually look to win the game rather than not lose it. This style worked 10 years ago but now it’s defunct. His problem is that he’s still using tactics from his Middlesbrough days.

for all my dislike of Southgate as a manager and coach I do think he’s a genuinely nice bloke. My fear is that our lovely media will turn on him a rip him apart when he inevitably fails. It will be messy ….

I think he will be treated okay by the media.

 

[tstanbur]

This is my preferred option but based not on winning the tournament but on our historical failure to do so. If we're going to get knocked out lets get knocked out having played in 5,6,7 goal thrillers all the way through rather than grinding out 1-0s. The going for the jugular approach is actually how we played in 2018.

Unfortunately from a stylistics point of view his more cautious approach got us to a couple of penalties away from winning the Euros last time round. It was also just a fluffed penalty form taking the french to extra time in the quarter finals. And that is as close as we've ever come which is why I can't knock his results. They speak for themselves.

Which is my only point on these threads. His results have been excellent even if his style is now not the most eye catching. Respect the results and give him his due for them.

Not sure you can describe winning 6-2, 3-0 and 3-0 before meeting the French as cautious. We weren’t cautious against the French either.

Some people have very short memories on here. This England team under Southgate has been by far the best in my lifetime. Far better than the so called “golden generation” and those managed by big names.

Southgate is tactically average but this team/squad wouldn’t be where it is without him due to excellent team spirit/culture building that was missing for decades before.

 

[tstanbur]

Despite cruising to qualification again (not something we could always take for granted), I just KNEW that the pitchfork mob would be out in force, queuing up to lose their shit because we didn't go and win two dead-rubbers by an aggregate of 17-0 playing like Brazil 70, whilst fielding a couple of scratch sides.

The entitlement on here from some is astonishing. I'm long enough in the tooth to recall England routinely absolutely STINKING the place out when we got to tournaments. So seeing us go SF - F - QF in the last 3 is still something of a novelty for me.

Yeah yeah, having got there, we coulda-shoulda and all that. But there's 23 / 31 other teams every 2 years who can also say exactly the same.

I'd be interested to know from those hankering for GS to be binned off, just who exactly the outstanding candidate is, waiting in the wings, to get us over the line and make us Champions ?

Southgate is far from perfect, he has many annoying shortcomings from selections to tactics (who is ever going to universally agree with those ?). But he's consistently got us further than the vast majority of the other muppets who we've burned through.

The entitlement is boring now.

Great post

 

[Easy 10]

As is the entitlement that he’s the man for the job despite failing for the last three tournaments. 10 years ago Spain, Portugal, Germany, Italy and Holland were a darn site better than they are now yet we still can’t win when it matters. How many times are we going to qualify and then f*** it up against a more tactically astute manager? Southgate is scared of losing and whilst he has that mind set every manger we face knows exactly how we are going to play. Get the early goal and hold on for dear life, he has no plan B. It’s easier to qualify now than ever before and so he should be using the qualification games as a learning experience so he can actually has a plan B and C for that matter. If he had the personality of any of the recent England managers he would have gone, but he’s a nice bloke and not likely to embarrass English football.

By that barometer, every single manager since 1966 has failed at tournaments, if winning the whole thing is the only thing that should count towards keeping them in a job. 1 tournamant, fail to win = "next please".

I'm still waiting to hear who this "tactically astute" manager is who can come in, harness the squad and piss all over Southgate's record, as if we're suddenly going to rock up and blow all the best teams away. Who is that man ?

And anyone who wants Southgate binned off RIGHT NOW may wish to consider that this incoming tactical genius, whoever that might be, will have - checks notes - 2 games of prep before the Euros.

 

[PeterT]

By that barometer, every single manager since 1966 has failed at tournaments, if winning the whole thing is the only thing that should count towards keeping them in a job. 1 tournamant, fail to win = "next please".

I'm still waiting to hear who this "tactically astute" manager is who can come in, harness the squad and piss all over Southgate's record, as if we're suddenly going to rock up and blow all the best teams away. Who is that man ?

And anyone who wants Southgate binned off RIGHT NOW may wish to consider that this incoming tactical genius, whoever that might be, will have - checks notes - 2 games of prep before the Euros.

I wonder if the FA have GP in mind to succeed Southgate after the Euros?

 

[Easy 10]

I wonder if the FA have GP in mind to succeed Southgate after the Euros?

He's relatively inoffensive, so would tick the box in that respect from the FA's point of view. He'd fit the blazer, toe the line.

However, he would be a disaster of an appointment. As we've all seen, his methods take a long time to bed in, and he simply would not get the time on the training ground he needs to get his ideas across. I'm not sure he deals very well with big players, big egos either.

Plus he's got thinner skin than a jellyfish. At the first sign of any criticism after a few shonky results, he'd be making narky little remarks like "maybe needing a history lesson..."

Potter is happily sitting on his £6m anyway. If I were him, I wouldn't work another day in my life.

 

[Eeyore]

He's relatively inoffensive, so would tick the box in that respect from the FA's point of view. He'd fit the blazer, toe the line.

However, he would be a disaster of an appointment. As we've all seen, his methods take a long time to bed in, and he simply would not get the time on the training ground he needs to get his ideas across. I'm not sure he deals very well with big players, big egos either.

Plus he's got thinner skin than a jellyfish. At the first sign of any criticism after a few shonky results, he'd be making narky little remarks like "maybe needing a history lesson..."

Potter is happily sitting on his £6m anyway. If I were him, I wouldn't work another day in my life.

Although in England's case he might have a valid point

 

[Eeyore]

Thank goodness we weren't playing the whole of Macedonia

Imagine playing the whole of Yugoslavia these days.

 

[Easy 10]

Harry Maguire rails at ‘soft’ penalties and urges Premier League to lead way

The centre-half said soft penalties were ‘making life hard for defenders’ while the England players complained of a bad pitch at Tose Proeski Arena

www.theguardian.com

Harry Maguire: "You should be able to defend"

I have no comment. Sometimes its just too easy.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

Not sure you can describe winning 6-2, 3-0 and 3-0 before meeting the French as cautious. We weren’t cautious against the French either.

Some people have very short memories on here. This England team under Southgate has been by far the best in my lifetime. Far better than the so called “golden generation” and those managed by big names.

Southgate is tactically average but this team/squad wouldn’t be where it is without him due to excellent team spirit/culture building that was missing for decades before.

You know what? I had forgotten those scores!

Your last sentence is essentially what I've been laboring to say. Except you've said it succinctly in one sentence and I've wasted paragraph after paragraph in post after post trying to get there.

 

[Garry Nelson's Left Foot]

The entitlement on here from some is astonishing. I'm long enough in the tooth to recall England routinely absolutely STINKING the place out when we got to tournaments. So seeing us go SF - F - QF in the last 3 is still something of a novelty for me.

To be fair you don't need to be particularly old to remember that. The run from 08-16 was remarkable in its shitness. So basically only kids under about 15 will have no memory of England stinking out tournaments.

Still, we should definitely be winning all these tournaments...

 

[Napper]

We’ve decent players but we still haven’t got world class central defenders in the terry / Adam’s mould .

That’s let us down as much as anything

With the back line we had at last 2 tournaments we punched about our weight

Going forward - no issues

Need luck to win it . We lost on pens which was unlucky v Italy .
The fact we had to face France so early was unlucky
Maybe next year we get more

We have a chance . That’s good enough

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

By that barometer, every single manager since 1966 has failed at tournaments, if winning the whole thing is the only thing that should count towards keeping them in a job. 1 tournamant, fail to win = "next please".

I'm still waiting to hear who this "tactically astute" manager is who can come in, harness the squad and piss all over Southgate's record, as if we're suddenly going to rock up and blow all the best teams away. Who is that man ?

And anyone who wants Southgate binned off RIGHT NOW may wish to consider that this incoming tactical genius, whoever that might be, will have - checks notes - 2 games of prep before the Euros.

It’s not a case of 1 failed tournament, it never was. if we improved game on game i’d be a happy chap but it’s not, it8s the same crap each time. Yes, we can hammer the small times but when it comes to anyone of any note and at the moment the bar is set low, he becomes over cautious a bottles it.

As for replacements I think Smug Eddie will the next England manager, but until then we have Southgate. As for tactical geniuses … southgate has set the bar very low, though not any lower than ent England manager in the last 15 years or so ….