No guarantee of help for disabled passengers, says Southern

[Lord Bracknell]

Shameful that this will likely be the case and doubly shameful that the strikers are using the disabled card to try and garner public support.

As someone who occasionally uses a wheelchair when making long train journeys, I'd like to have it recorded that it's not the strikers who are "playing the disabled card". It's the passengers.

And I am happy to join them.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Piss off!
Your the only one complaining.

No. I'm complaining too.

 

[The Rivet]

No. I'm complaining too.

Complain away then. I'm not listening.

Additionally you have no idea if any of my family, associates, larger family or friends use a chair, do you?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Complain away then. I'm not listening.

Additionally you have no idea if any of my family, associates, larger family or friends use a chair, do you?

No, I don't know anything about your circumstances, nor those of your family or friends. But what I do know is that most wheelchair users find the term "wheelchair bound" offensive. A wheelchair is a mode of transport that liberates people. It doesn't confine us.

 

[Alex Alex Dawson oo! oo!]

No, I don't know anything about your circumstances, nor those of your family or friends. But what I do know is that most wheelchair users find the term "wheelchair bound" offensive. A wheelchair is a mode of transport that liberates people. It doesn't confine us.

Exactly this, well said.

 

[clippedgull]

Perhaps a staged incident then. A wheelchair bound person with friends helping with the ramp onto the train whilst doors open and then with the agreement of the wheelchair bound person just leaving it whilst waiting for 'official' help. Train cant move, doors wont close and point made. Maybe at several stations at the same time across the network.

Any ramps will probably be put under lock and key if the station is not staffed.

 

[West Hoathly Seagull]

If the government allows this, are they not in breach of their own disability legislation? Or does Southern being a private operator get round this?

 

[pastafarian]

No, I don't know anything about your circumstances, nor those of your family or friends. But what I do know is that most wheelchair users find the term "wheelchair bound" offensive. A wheelchair is a mode of transport that liberates people. It doesn't confine us.

i dont know the views of all wheelchair users or even most tbh, however my old man is wheelchair bound, so can only comment on his view.
I doubt he is alone.

Its the term (bound) he refers to his himself when enquiring about accessibility to football,theatre,hotels, offices....well anything really.
Its the term he and his carers, district nurses, care providers and other officials converse in when discussing his needs.
He does not find it offensive in the slightest.

Just last week he was enquiring about access to an accountants office,he said he was a wheelchair user. He was told there were
only six steps,not very steep at all, up to the front entrance and a member of staff would carry his wheelchair up the steps for him.
Pointing out he was actually wheelchair bound came with, oh im sorry i misunderstood, come to the staff entrance at the back its all level ground from there.

Just saying like.

Not sure this getting offended on behalf of other people lark who are not offended at all is all its cracked up to be.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

i dont know the views of all wheelchair users or even most tbh, however my old man is wheelchair bound, so can only comment on his view.
I doubt he is alone.

Its the term (bound) he refers to his himself when enquiring about accessibility to football,theatre,hotels, offices....well anything really.
Its the term he and his carers, district nurses, care providers and other officials converse in when discussing his needs.
He does not find it offensive in the slightest.

Just last week he was enquiring about access to an accountants office,he said he was a wheelchair user. He was told there were
only six steps,not very steep at all, up to the front entrance and a member of staff would carry his wheelchair up the steps for him.
Pointing out he was actually wheelchair bound came with, oh im sorry i misunderstood, come to the staff entrance at the back its all level ground from there.

Just saying like.

Not sure this getting offended on behalf of other people lark who are not offended at all is all its cracked up to be.

I'm not putting myself forward as a spokesperson for other people. I'm speaking as someone who has worked for thirty years as a provider of transport services for people with disabilities, bringing me into daily contact with a wide variety of transport service users.

My work included a three year term as a member of the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee (DPTAC), a statutory body that advises Ministers about matters relating to the transport needs of disabled people. DPTAC also has a role in regulating the performance of train operators in meeting their obligations under disability legislation. For what it's worth, my view is that Southern's current performance falls well below their obligations under the law.

 

[The Clamp]

You're still referring to a small cohort of those classified as disabled (ie wheelchair users).

FYI you are classified a disabled in law: "If you have a physical or mental impairment that has a ‘substantial’ and ‘long-term’ negative effect on your ability to do normal daily activities".
‘Substantial’ is more than minor or trivial, eg it takes much longer than it usually would to complete a daily task like getting dressed
‘Long-term’ means 12 months or more.
Anyone who has been diagnosed with a progressive condition (one that gets worse over time) can also be classified as disabled; those with cancer (me), HIV or MS are automatically classified as such.
You're sorry for me? Disingenuous ****, go and f**k off.

Yes, the ones in the two high profile news stories you rude, silly little man.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

If the government allows this, are they not in breach of their own disability legislation?

Yes.

Or does Southern being a private operator get round this?

No.

 

[Sajerz]

Just to add to the bashing of Southern. I know of several occasions where wheelchair users have informed Southern of their travel arrangements well in advance and were assured someone will either be on the train or on the platform to assist them. Guess what? No one turned up. The disabled will be the worst affected if Southern continue to penny pinch.

 

[pastafarian]

I'm not putting myself forward as a spokesperson for other people. I'm speaking as someone who has worked for thirty years as a provider of transport services for people with disabilities, bringing me into daily contact with a wide variety of transport service users.

My work included a three year term as a member of the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee (DPTAC), a statutory body that advises Ministers about matters relating to the transport needs of disabled people. DPTAC also has a role in regulating the performance of train operators in meeting their obligations under disability legislation. For what it's worth, my view is that Southern's current performance falls well below their obligations under the law.

Ok
but what is any of that to do with the term "bound" being offensive.
I was simply giving an example where it wasnt considered offensive in the slightest.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Ok
but what is any of that to do with the term "bound" being offensive.
I was simply giving an example where it wasnt considered offensive in the slightest.

You gave an example where one person said he wasn't offended. And I'm not challenging that. My view that "most" disabled people object to the term "wheelchair bound" is based on years of experience of working with a very large number of wheelchair users and other people with other disabilities, to say nothing of my own opinion as an occasional wheelchair user.

 

[Triggaaar]

i dont know the views of all wheelchair users or even most tbh, however my old man is wheelchair bound, so can only comment on his view.
I doubt he is alone.

Its the term (bound) he refers to his himself when enquiring about accessibility to football,theatre,hotels, offices....well anything really.

So if you know a black person who refers to themselves as a ******, or a gay person who refers to themselves as a fag***, does that mean it's ok for everyone to use those terms? No, of course not.

Its the term he and his carers, district nurses, care providers and other officials converse in when discussing his needs.

Hopefully they're doing so only when with him because it is the term he likes to use. They shouldn't be using the term in their normal work.

Just last week he was enquiring about access to an accountants office,he said he was a wheelchair user.

So he sometimes says he's a wheelchair user then.

He was told there were only six steps,not very steep at all, up to the front entrance and a member of staff would carry his wheelchair up the steps for him.
Pointing out he was actually wheelchair bound came with, oh im sorry i misunderstood, come to the staff entrance at the back its all level ground from there.

So you're saying there are more people that need educating. Good to know.

Perhaps we should call disabled people beggars right, since that's what they used to have to do to live.

Not sure this getting offended on behalf of other people lark who are not offended at all is all its cracked up to be.

I don't think your view will surprise anyone.

 

[beorhthelm]

If the government allows this, are they not in breach of their own disability legislation? Or does Southern being a private operator get round this?

or are there some assumptions of the law that are incorrect? the legislation say organisations have to make "reasonable adjustments" to enable disabled access. while removing a service doesn't seem reasonable, the law doesnt say they must provide access either. there are 150 odd stations across the network, yet apparently only 33 provide guaranteed assistance, presumably you had to book ahead for all the others.

 

[pastafarian]

So if you know a black person who refers to themselves as a ******, or a gay person who refers to themselves as a fag***, does that mean it's ok for everyone to use those terms? No, of course not.

Hopefully they're doing so only when with him because it is the term he likes to use. They shouldn't be using the term in their normal work.

So he sometimes says he's a wheelchair user then.
So you're saying there are more people that need educating. Good to know.

Perhaps we should call disabled people beggars right, since that's what they used to have to do to live.

I don't think your view will surprise anyone.

you can call my old man wheelchair bound if you like he wont be offended at all.
that was all i was saying.

catch all be offended for everyone does not always apply.

 

[Triggaaar]

you can call my old man wheelchair bound if you like he wont be offended at all.
that was all i was saying.

Ok, but it's not quite all you were saying, as you said "Not sure this getting offended on behalf of other people lark who are not offended at all is all its cracked up to be", suggesting you think it's a load of PC BS. Some minority groups need others to speak out for them, or change will take a lot longer.

 

[clapham_gull]

or are there some assumptions of the law that are incorrect? the legislation say organisations have to make "reasonable adjustments" to enable disabled access. while removing a service doesn't seem reasonable, the law doesnt say they must provide access either. there are 150 odd stations across the network, yet apparently only 33 provide guaranteed assistance, presumably you had to book ahead for all the others.

There is enough on line quoting experts who think there is a potential breach. It would of course have be tested in court but to suggest such people are "assuming" aspects of the law somewhat undermines their expertise....

Assuming aspects and interpretation are very different things.

Someone quite clear interpretation I've read reads as such. If you are on a train and can't get off at your station because there is only a driver and the station is unstaffed, that would be a breach.

Unless Southern can tell everyone what exceptional circumstances would lead to such a situation....

 

[clapham_gull]

It's interesting reading in London. The situation with infrastructure has improved but that's come from a background when wheelchairs were banned on the underground until 1993.

I used to work in Camden not long after that and there was this man with a sports type chair who used to take himself down the escalator.. yes really.

Half of the tube will be step free by next year, but that percentage doesn't extend to those that will be open 24 hours.

Clapham Junction is now step free but I was amazed to learn that until campaigners got involved some stations on Crossrail were going to initially open with accessibility issues. Wow...